Open Thread: GEOS Discussion

This is a good read about illegal contracts in Japan.

http://forum.gaijinpot.com/showthread.php?t=59467&highlight=eikaiwa+cont...

This link just reinforces my point that employers in Japan load their contracts will illegal clauses and can make any statement/threats with impunity.

Thanks Org

I know it happens from time to time - a little background here might be
prudent - I work in HR (in Japan) for freelance workers across a few different industries dealing with a lot of visa/SOR issues and have seen this kind of vindictive ass-clownery from smaller employers - and strangely enough entertainment agencies a lot (like the poster on the GP thread) - fortunately it never works

And I realize my last post was a bit of a novel but i was concerned that GEOS may be doing it (or not as the case may be)

i have worked with an ex-geos HO foreign manager in the past who told me he'd very nearly been fired for breaking the labor standards law when terminating a teacher's contract early - apparently after that the foreign staff were told to follow the law to the letter and given a copy of the act in English - having said all that, this was more than five years ago, I'm not sure if it was a company policy or a reaction to nearly being sued.

It's very easy to go to the Labor Burea and file a complaint (even without great Japanese ability)
- they take almost everything seriously and will at least make a cursory investigation on your behalf.

I've seen some complaints that were clearly untenable (on the part of the employee) being investigated every bit as seriously as complaints grounded in fact - I'm just surprised that so few GEOS people seem prepared to do it.

The Kuchikomi threads all have GEOS managers talking about doing it
- but in the end nobody seems to go through with it.

Oops sorry one more thing -

Under Japanese labor law - all contracts in English MUST be submitted with a Japanese translation to the Labor Bureau and approved by them
otherwise they are not valid - if you are given a strange contract
fax a copy to the Bureau

supergodmasterforce...are you Glenski on another well known forum?? If, so we have chatted a few times there. And Yes, its true, Glenski is always right on labor laws and general legal issues in Japan.

info from Glenski - he's always right

I do a bit of surfing on that OTHER site and this has to be the funniest statement I've seen in ages.

honestly never understood why the guy cops flak from time to time -
he's always posting info to help people, will check your resume for you
and he's been doing it for YEARS

nothing wrong with that in my book

anyhoo - not to derail the thread here
back to GEOS

I agree about the students. In my school, perhaps I'm lucky, most of my students are quite pleasant once given a chance. Sure some of them are a little special but they're my customers I do the best job I can. Sometimes they annoy me but such is the way of customer service, especially teaching.
Teaching is not a glamorous job by any means but man it can be so rewarding.
I am really looking forward to getting out of GEOS but I plan to take my students into consideration, I mean they pay me in theory and they didn't do anything wrong.

Honestly, it's a much better idea to pursue a career in what you are actually qualified to do as hard as it might be. What are your long-term goals? To work at an Eikaiwa for the next couple of decades? Good luck with that!

Agree with that. You're going to be much more satisfied if you keep pushing hard for what you really want to do as a career, even if, like you said, it's difficult to achieve. And even if you don't achieve it, at least TRYING to achieve it will make you feel better than wallowing in an "easy" eikaiwa job and nice little 300k a month salary, talking absolute rubbish to Japanese people for the rest of your life. Or should I say, until your company goes bankrupt and you end up out on your arse, out of a job and unemployable in anything except talking crap 8 hours a day.

Or should I say, until your company goes bankrupt and you end up out on your arse, out of a job and unemployable in anything except talking crap 8 hours a day.

And there it is. Pretty much concludes this discussion. New thread anyone?

Agree with that. You're going to be much more satisfied if you keep pushing hard for what you really want to do as a career, even if, like you said, it's difficult to achieve.

Exactly. And for that guy who moved to Japan to work at an Eikaiwa it would have been a much better idea to re-locate to a region in your home country with more job opportunities than to go to Japan. At least try and get some experience in the job you actually want to do in life.

For those that complain about how people behave towards Eikaiwa workers on this site, have you read what the creator of this site wrote:

Hey, kids! Welcome to our web site all about riding the gravy train in Japan. What's that you say? I can make money just by existing, by simply showing up and speaking English?! Yep, you sure can! Our site is dedicated to all you carbon blobs out there. Learn how to tie a tie and nod your head thoughtfully and you're in!

He calls people intending to work at an Eikaiwa "carbon blobs"- hardly flattering language and you can read the rest of his comment. So none of this cry-baby stuff about how I only want to hear positive thoughts on GEOS and Eikaiwa workers. This is a site dedicated to “debunking Eikaiwa”, after all.

Lying slimeballs are attracted to other lying slimeballs. And since the biggest slime (no offense to Slimer from Ghostbusters because he is rather cool) is at the top in Japan, well, slime begets slime. Welcome to GEOS Canada, where every manager is a scumbag or looking for another job, or both.

does geos actually train its managers (japanese and foreign) to be such lying slimeballs?

Let's not be diplomatic about our labels. It is nearly lunchtime afterall.

I think Lying Cunts would be a little more realistic no?

in the literal sense, cunt is one of my favorite things. slimeball, on the other hand, is always negative. i stand by my original wording!

Any updates on Calgary?

I give GEOS Canada 6 months, tops...They will not make it through next winter...Maybe survive, barely, through high-season summer months...

Mr. K will make more effort to keep the U.S. schools, at least New York and one LA one, open. They are more important than Canada internationally (hence why the main GEOS NA location i in NY) and he needs a place to visit in the U.S.

Some do actually teach English because they do know how, not just wasting the hours away with free conversation despite the fact that students often dont want a lesson. Please stop taring everyone with the same brush and leave people alone to do what they choose to do. We have Japan bashing now there is Eikawa Sensei Bashing. Give me a break please!!!!

those of us that know how to teach english are often reduced to tears by the utter drivel in the inhouse textbooks and the grammatical illiteracy of the clowns that wrote them. people who complain those books are outdated miss the point - they were crap the day they were published. being expected to teach english with a millenium textbook is like being asked to perform heart surgery with a grapefruit spoon.

Anyone with a teaching qualification who's teaching eikaiwa is a lazy waster. I know, I've seen them. They do it because they can't be arsed with a real teaching job in a high school where you actually have to work. They'd rather drift along at GEOS or NOVA and let their teaching skills go down the chute, all because it's "easy". Sorry, I've not seen an eikaiwa that actually does anything for your teaching skills. Yes, there may be some places that demand a bit more than the average "talking crap" routine, but it sure as hell won't develop your teaching skills, or be recognised as proper teaching.

I'm not bashing eikaiwa teachers, I'm just trying to point out the reality of it, hopefully to kick people's arses into doing something else that's more worthwhile, and has a future in it (that is, if you CAN do something else, and have got the guts to do it).

If you find this offensive and hard to come to terms with, so be it.

I'm a prick am I? Thanks, that's the nicest thing anybody's said to me all day.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't mean ALT when I said high-school, I meant someone with a degree in Education - you know, someone qualified to teach a particular subject.

You also seem to be slagging off "teacher-centred" teaching. I agree with you, I'd rather have it where the students are working it out for themselves and the teacher helping them along, rather than a "discipline nazi" cracking the whip and telling everyone what to do.

My main point is that eikaiwa doesn't do much for your development, nor does it do much for anyone wanting to learn English, no matter what all these people who claim to work at "better" eikaiwa say. That's not to say it does NOTHING for you, but let's just say the ratio isn't particularly great.

A degree in education? You know how many retards I have seen graduate with an education degree??!! Many only got into education because they wanted a cushy government job with summers off and no real responsibility or work ethic. Seriously, you wonder why our kids are failing tests and life in general? Because of their crappy, inbred, lazy-ass teachers!

I know of many with education degree who teach in the public school system...They might be friends, but let's just say I would never entrust my kid's future of them. They bitch and moan about the kids and talk incessantly about only doing the job for the "time off" in the summer and teacher days off. Oh, and the almost unlimited amount of sick days they get and routinely abuse.

fair cop guv'nor!

Or maybe they're just typos?

If my background in neurology amounted solely to an evening with "Gray's Anatomy", would you trust me to perform brain surgery on you?

Well... that show is pretty good. I'd have to say you'd be more than qualified.

Typos? Dudes, look at the post he was replying to...It is full of typos!!! You are all idiots!

And all I have to do is look at the failed public school system in North America to know how bad the teachers are...They are more union puppets than teachers anymore...

Okay, my friend works with students agents in Canada. She met with several agents these last few weeks in Toronto and Montreal. She noticed posters up for GEOS at at least two agent offices displaying huge discounts. They are offering 15% off all tuition (on already low rates for the market) along with some other huge long-term study discount IF the students pre-pay everything. They definitely seem to be scrambling for money/ students at GEOS Canada. However, the damage has already been done since she asked the agents about GEOS and all of them gave a funny look or said they do not trust them. No students they knew of were much interested in GEOS, especially the Korean ones.

While discounts are normal in the industry, these are quite large because they are on top of the commission they already pay. And they are being offered through the summer months, which is not a good sign. They are more like December recession discounts.

Ummm, see the post just above yours...and the other ones on this thread. The latest posts might be off topic, but the old ones are...And it does not look good for GEOS. !5% discounts, plus commission and free registration, etc...summer months...long-study prepayment efforts and all the rest.

...About the late salaries, GEOS NA has been pulling out all the stops to get them paid on time. They are delaying payments to other services providers and creditors. They know if they pay late in NA they will have major teacher troubles...Teachers leave, so do the students. But it is all a big facade since several school here have had trouble meeting payroll. They might meet it barely, and survive into summer on the normal season upsurge and reduced staff...But...Next winter? There agent market is dead. Koreans do not want anything to do with them, as huge market in Canada by far.

I think the best way to get back at some of the scumbags in charge of GEOS is to call them out on this board. Sure, there are some good people...But I would name them. I would name the ruthless, aXs-kissing managers who routinely do not pay employees for all their hours, force endless hours of SPR (student progress report) sessions that are UNPAID!), fail to tell GEOS teachers about vacation pay or other entitlements just to save a few bucks, etc...These shXtheads need to be called on the carpet for their idiotic and sometimes illegal behaviour.

Of the ones I have heard about or had the unfortunate position of working for (or friend or colleague worked for), here are the worst...

1. The manager in Ottawa...believe her name is Munroe. Possibly Marsha or Martha Munroe. I have heard horror stories of this nutjob. Supposedly she never shuts up, consistently does things aXs-backwards just to "prove" she is the manager, and seems to hate all males...She purposely will not hire male office staff and hates any male that might disagree with her. That and she is loonie from the teacher grapevine,, and could never get another hob anywhere else. I heard she doesn't even have a degree, but that is unconfirmed.

2. Uri Carnat, the General Manager at GEOS Montreal and something of a self-appointed VP or similar . I think everyone has heard horror stories of this Napolean. He is power hungry and has made so many waves in GEOS, causing a really skilled and likable manager at GEOS Vancouver to quit (on another post in detail). Names I have heard to describe all around GEOS are "Napolean", "mysoginistic", "Mr. K bootlicker", "liar", etc...Supposedly he was gunning for the top position in NA, but Mr. K shot him down and re-affirmed NY as the center of the GEOS NA universe. Then Mike left in NY for their arch rival suddenly. He is still not the head and probably doesn't want to be given how the ship is sinking...

3. Mike Tompkins used to be in Toronto, but got canned last year. Heard he was just incompetent and liked to send fake e-mails to spy on people. Do not know much about him and he is gone, replaced by a Korean-Canadian that is probably just filler.

4. Naoka in Vancouver. She is the main manager now, especially since the good one left earlier because of the Montreal manager. "Puppet" has been used to describe her...She is Japanese, so...

5. GEOS Calgary,,,haven't heard much about the manager...then again maybe because no one even nows about GEOS Calgary...

Anything others in the know might add? Anyone know of GEOS USA first hand.

I believe the critical indicator is whether student numbers are trending up or down and how fast. The logic is as follows:
Assumption 1. GEOS Japan has taken most spare cash out of NA to send back to Japan to pay for branch closures, losses etc (This seems likely given irrefutable evidence in Australia, and a few insider postings about Canada)
Assumption 2. Japan is not of a mind/ able to put money back into NA
Assumption 3. As in Australia - The money taken goes well beyond any profits and plunders most of the student fees in advance.
In this scenario, it is a sort of ponzi scheme. You can drain the cash out as long as numbers are increasing and cash coming in from new students exceeds cash going out to look after old students. However if numbers trend down - even if in fact things are profitable - there is an immediate and very dramatic cashflow crisis. This could be termed 'The Australian GEOS effect"
So Canadian and American bloggers - get evidence of student trends year on year and month by month also ratio of full to empty classrooms. Also try to confirm that few Koreans are starting - the Koreans are pivotal and few schools can survive without them. I don't know whether North American industry people understand just how close some of the large Korean agents are to the Australian industry people. It was the Australian regulators, Australian industry people and Korean agents who actually blew the whistle on the GEOS empire. Mr K is a fool for attempting to bullshit the Koreans. And many large Korean agents are very tight with the Australians. You would expect weak Korean numbers - despite special offers. So NA bloggers need to post every little indicator of number and classroom trends and agent support and student nationalities of starting students. This will give everyone a very good indicator of what is happening in NA.

My girlfriend's brother used to frequent a sushi restaurant in which he heard a man who he knew to be a GEOS accountancy clerk saying that he had heard that there would be NO problems with salaries this month

Amusing footnote. GEOS continues to remove any sign of GEOS Australia and New Zealand from its websites. GEOS Australia? Who are they? However........ In the temporary (under construction) page below, the webmaster has left NEAS logo - presumably didn't know. Rather amusing given that poor locally-owned and reputable English Australia / NEAS schools - who on average operated more ethically than GEOS are picking up all the GEOS students for no fees. There is a saying about 'adding insult to injury'
http://www.geos-international.com/
Aussie Payback? Do you know that every week 100 Australian schools each have on average one staff member overseas? With 25 appointments per week, that is - say 2500 agent appointments each week. Aussies are a pretty yappy lot - known for speaking their minds. I don't think they will hold back on the subject of GEOS's trail of rape, pillage and lies in Australia. Since the collapse of GEOS Aus, that is almost 20 000 meetings with the very decision makers who hold the future of GEOS NA in their hands.

Must congratulate the poster on their writing. Good vocab, pacy, interesting and easy to read. Us Aussies walk all over those Canadians when it comes to contemporary English text. Well done, cobber. Orooo....

there would be NO problems with salaries this month

I suppose opinions are like assholes - everyone has one.

19:18 Excellent post. Very insightful and rational...

Okay, I will help out a bit but not too much. Can't give away my sources or experience for obvious reasons, but I really do want to assist you and others to keeping tabs on what is going on with GEOS NA. Student number ARE down at GEOS Canada. While I cannot confirm all locations, the main ones (largest) are definitely down. While I am not privy to exact numbers, it comes from a variety of sources:

A) Teachers and staff can provide first-hand accounts (very useful since they are at the front lines). All teachers I know (not all schools, but more than one) say they have smaller classes than the previous year. Also, casual and shorter-hour and temp. teachers are being let go more frequently or given less hours...

B) School YouTube and Facebook graduation videos, photos, etc...If you taught a GEOS, they work wonders. You can compare your knowledge of student numbers when you taught during the same month, year-on-year.

C) AGENTS, especially KOREAN agents (and their students, if you know them). The look on their faces and the comments made...Priceless. And you can find out how many students they are actually place

D) GEOS Canada pissed off the Koreans, so they went after the South American market. Heard stories of the GEOS VP/ Montreal manager (Uri) making frequent "agent trips" to Columbia, Brazil, etc. Sounds like Mr. K's "trips" that are used for tax write-offs/ scams in Japan. The guy supposedly hit Mexico, Brazil, Columbia, and others all on GEOS tab. Nice waste of money. How much can you gain from the South American market? They do not spend the same sort of money Koreans do...Must not be welcomed in Korea.

E) Do not believe GEOS newsletters alerts purporting to show the breakdown of nationalities of their students at each school. They are made up half the time, either for convenience or for more sinister reasons. Usually the numbers aren't exact, and the total student count is a big facade to look like everything is going oh-so-smoothly (they actually add students who only came for a free placement test as "GEOS students"!!!). However, even these fudged numbers show that Koreans make up only a small percentage now. Most schools are well under 10%!

F) 15% "specials", long-term discounts fro pre-payment, summer specials...They are all in-direct evidence of reduced student numbers. Anyone knows this in the industry.

Koreans are HUGE in the market in Canada. They are much more studious than Japanese or South American/ Mexican students, spend more money on certificate courses, etc.

P.S. Did not check my long post for grammar or syntax. ;-)

19:18 You definitely have some inside knowledge of GEOS and the industry. I hope more people like you from NA come through on this board to expose everything. Canada is on the hot seat now that Australia is closed.

GEOS Canada used to advertise about max. 12 a class....then they moved some marketing stuff to "14 max." Unfortunately, they do not follow this at certain locations in Canada in the summer. Heard the past to summers they wer stuffing. Now that would be okay at schools with large classes, but schools like Montreal I heard have ridiculously small classes...Shitty air-conditioning, crammer students, etc...= not happy students or teachers. And anything over 12 starts to piss students off, especially picky Koreans who will complain and have complained to agents a lot recently. Judging from other online resources, the Korean enrollments are way down or non-existent for a lot of GEOS Canada schools...And that changed quickly. Agents are also not impressed or trusting, sot he 15% discount has done nothing. Look for more discounts soon,,,They already have Bring-a-Friend, Elective, and other discounts on top of that...

I heard some people take trips, but some in NA have taken a few too many, and sacrificed their school quality because of the money spent. While it might lay the groundwork. As for the South American market, it has grown but that is only because they are coming late to the market, , and even dangerous conditions in Mexico/ parents sending them to safety. However, they only spend a long time because of the visa restrictions and they usually buy extra hours when in Canada like Koreans do for TEOSL, IELTS TESOL,and TOEFL iBT.

Towards the end GEOS Aus actually increased the class sizes to up to 20 students in a few schools -

WRONG - GEOS Australian schools were governed by NEAS. The maximum number of students in a class is capped at 18 students and we all followed these regulations. None of the Australian schools ever had any more than 18 students. I cant speak for NZ.

f) I agree that the discounts are not a good look for a school but GEOS have always done this. When 15% becomes 25, 30 or even 40% (like in the final days of Perth school)

WRONG - All GEOS Australian schools collaborated on discounted fees offered to various students of nationalities, we all offered the same. 40% was NEVER offered to any agent. The 40% you are referring to is in fact offered by a number of Australian poorly reputable colleges to get numbers in and pump them through. We at GEOS were not interested in pumping up the classes as we would then have to listen to unhappy students, teachers, staff and agents.. was not worth it and not interested.

I agree that the discounts are not a good look for a school

Of course excessive discounts look bad....

but GEOS have always done this

oh well there's a surprise.

The 40% you are referring to is in fact offered by a number of Australian poorly reputable colleges to get numbers in and pump them through

I take it these "poorly reputable colleges" are still trading? and GEOS is out of business? Hmmm.. The GEOS brand/reputation is now worthless so "poorly reputable" is a few notches above.

We at GEOS were not interested in pumping up the classes as we would then have to listen to unhappy students, teachers, staff and agents.

So closing the school doors was a better option leaving students with a number to contact Ernst and Young?
Who is this WE you refer to? You place students, teachers, staff and agents (virtually the entire chain in the GEOS operation) as the OTHER so I can only assume you were management. Just a thought... if you had listened to concerns from these parties at an earlier stage you might not have gone bankrupt. But from the tone of your post this would have been far too much of a headache right?
Your logic sucks.

We at GEOS were not interested in forming and implimenting a sound and ethical business plan designed to attract and retain staff and students.

Fixed it for you.

I am NOT in Australia...And I have purposely played with my words so as not to be identified.

I am DEFINITELY NOT GEOS management...Never have been and never will.

No, the 20-students per class issue is more specific to GEOS Canada, where many of the classrooms. From what I saw on the Internet, GEOS Australia had some posh classrooms an facilities, comparatively speaking. Students were mad, especially Koreans, harassed their teachers about it which lowered morale, and management just passed the buck and tries to lie to the agents. Agents knew and got pissed as students complained to them...Slippery slope and GEOS crap management just added the water...And now Koreans won't even touch the schools in most cities, and GEOS thinks hiring a bunch of token Korean staff will fix the problem. Good luck.

Why does this board cut off my sentences?

Should have read: "No, the 20-students per class issue is more specific to GEOS Canada, where many of the classrooms barely can hold 8 comfortably and lack adequate ventilation"...

Well, they just keep turning over staff...GEOS Ottawa has another new Academic Coordinator. They turn over so often, and most have said why on this board. So, new one in Ottawa, new one requested in Toronto, new one requested at GEOS Montreal (both Montreal and Toronto did not fill their full contractual periods!), new in Calgary, I believe...Wow...

If you are serious about sending it. congrats to you. I would just love for a GEOS Japan management troll in all his happy Japanese EnRish try to refute and cover up the claims on this board. Would be a fun skirmish, wouldn't it?

Might want to send it to this guy also: Masufumi Naito at Special K's right-hand man.

A contact told me the new discount of the month, at least at GEOS Ottawa for now, involves trying to get students who have already paid for 24 hours ("GEOS Hours") to move to 31-hour intensive. The normally charge another $400 or so a month, but are offering it for $180.

The desperation discounts just keep piling up, don't they?

Might want to send it to this guy also: Masufumi Naito

Masa knows all about it - the one Gent still there.

WRONG - All GEOS Australian schools collaborated on discounted fees offered to various students of nationalities, we all offered the same. 40% was NEVER offered to any agent

It is FACT that GEOS Australia paid 35% commisison to a FEW agents and these agents also worked with many OTHER non GEOS Australian schools who also paid 35% commission. This is NO secret. It is also TRUE that if you take into account the net fee received from promotions that were run and EVERY school runs promotions, then the commission is in effect high.

However, from the E&Y reports that have been posted for Melbourne and Perth, both these schools were profitable and were owed millions of dollars in loans to Japan and other GEOS regions. These loans were not capable of being repaid according to the E&Y reports. Let Japan, NA, Europe and Asia offer explanations why they never repaid these loans. Maybe becuase they just don't have the money!