Wedding Celebrants

[sampler]

There are NO female BOKUSHI.

My point exactly.

What do you do for a living?

I run a small English school plus I am a real church pastor.

[CAVEMAN]

Thanks for the information. Many of your colleagues with a religious vocation are working as fake priests. Gaijin Western men living in Japan. Hundreds in fact. They have their own company, the name of which escapes me at the moment. To a man these guys all belong to tiny churches that no one has ever heard of.

Why do you guys always strike out on your own and 'church-plant" all these obscure denominations in kitchens and living rooms when there are elready established Protestant churches in Japan? Seems redundant to me, but I come from an Orthodox Christian bacground, a tradition that you know nothing about.

[Wage Slave]

The last sentence is just a gratuitous insult but Caveman makes a good point here. I have great difficulty in regarding the bible believing non denominational churches as proper churches. Even churches that call themselves, say, Baptist have nothing to do with the established church and are not subject to any overview, regulation or quality assurance. Baptist just means we believe in dunking people much of the time.

[CAVEMAN]

The last sentence is just a gratuitous insult but Caveman makes a good point here. I have great difficulty in regarding the bible believing non denominational churches as proper churches. Even churches that call themselves, say, Baptist have nothing to do with the established church and are not subject to any overview, regulation or quality assurance. Baptist just means we believe in dunking people much of the time.

Which church is the "established church"? In England it's the Anglican Church. In Scandinavia it's the Evangelical Lutheran. In some countries it's the Catholic Church. In Russia it's the Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchy.

My comment is all about young men who want to start their own "churches' for reasons of vainglory. They want to 'run their own show' rather than undergo any real, rigorous training by an established church. Many of these guys were refused ordination by the larger established churches because they couldn't buckle down and study and decided "Hey, man, I'll start my own church, like some of the original Apostles did, man".

[sampler]

Caveman, your points have little or nothing to do with Wedding Celebrants, you are now talking about church planting.

I'm not sure if you want me to respond to your questions or not. If so, first define your terms and then send me a PM.

[Wage Slave]

Which church is the "established church"? In England it's the Anglican Church. In Scandinavia it's the Evangelical Lutheran. In some countries it's the Catholic Church. In Russia it's the Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchy.

Yep. Sorry I meant AN established church rather than THE established church. The sort of people running churches that you are talking about are probably not the worst. I fear there are others more cynical, bigoted, self serving and/or more demented than that.

[CAVEMAN]

Sampler wrote: "Caveman, your points have little or nothing to do with Wedding Celebrants, you are now talking about church planting. I'm not sure if you want me to respond to your questions or not. If so, first define your terms and then send me a PM."

Point taken, but you disparage celebrants, who are, granted, flatulent slobs who are merely performing a service and getting paid for it, so I thought I would take Gaijin Christians in Japan to task, too!

Are you aware of the recent demise of TBN, a wedding company that owes unpaid salaries to over 100 BOKUSHI and 600 musicians? That should be grist for your mill. I know all about the scandal, bankruptcy and deviousness of THAT particular business.

Hopefully more BOKUSHI will post here.

You should try a few wedding gigs. MANY of your fellow so-called "Christians" are doing it.

[sampler]

Are you aware of the recent demise of TBN, a wedding company that owes unpaid salaries to over 100 BOKUSHI and 600 musicians? That should be grist for your mill. I know all about the scandal, bankruptcy and deviousness of THAT particular business.

I was personally aware of their operations which by their own admission wandered into 'grey areas' regarding the law. I also noticed that the River City Church (who provided lots of pastors) distanced themselves from the company half a year ago. So what brought TBN down?

[CAVEMAN]

Are you aware of the recent demise of TBN, a wedding company that owes unpaid salaries to over 100 BOKUSHI and 600 musicians? That should be grist for your mill. I know all about the scandal, bankruptcy and deviousness of THAT particular business.

I was personally aware of their operations which by their own admission wandered into 'grey areas' regarding the law. I also noticed that the River City Church (who provided lots of pastors) distanced themselves from the company half a year ago. So what brought TBN down?

I hadn't known that River City Mission cut links to TBN 6 months ago. I also didn't know that River City provided pastors since River City is an Idaho organization and TBN operates in Japan. Their web-site is goofy, featuring pics of a bunch of middle-aged fat guys wearing 'Charlie Brown sweaters' posing for the camera. The "Mission" appears to have no building and no parishioners, since all we get on the web-site are pics of the wives (a grand total of 5 or 6 women) drinking tea together or sitting down on a lawn during a picnic. Another photo shows us 3 or 4 people, again wearing dopey 'Charlie Brown-style sweaters', posing in front of a forlorn Christmas tree. These guys don't look like they could convert an alcoholic to whiskey. What kind of church is that? Probably a bunch of people who couldn't make it in other churches so they decided to form their own. And River City? Come on man, small town hicks from nowhere claiming to know the Bible and having the gall to preach in Japan? Give me a freakin' break! 90% of Christian missionaries in Japan are nerds - plain and simple. Geeks who didn't fit in, so they went "the God route". Admit it.

Ahem... TBN office staff claim that the president ran off with the money. Is it true? I don't know. What I do know is that one former pastor is still owed 4 million yen, another guy is owed 3 million and dozens more are owed over 300,000 yen. The president apparently lived in a 600,000 yen a month condo, was sleeping with one female employee and fathered a child with yet another woman (not his wife). And I have heard even worse rumours. And the president claimed to be a committed Christian.

TBN is still scamming people because it set up shop under a new name. New shingle, same old business, same people working there, at the same venues. A classic controlled bankruptcy.

You won't get far denigrating the wedding business with this information. Nobody cares except you and the shafted former employees.

I've got 4 weddings to do this coming weekend. Yes!

Next question!

[parallel universe]

You won't get far denigrating the wedding business with this information. Nobody cares except you and the shafted former employees.

Caveman, I like the way you think. On this thread and elsewhere (Iijima Ai thread) your posts are always a pleasure to read (serious-- not being sarcastic).

What do you know about this outfit, is it affiliated in any way with the TBN you mentioned? It's a matchmaking/ o-miai service in Japan under the TBN name. Investigate and report, please. From their web site it looks like it costs the lucky gaijin about U.S. $3800.00 to secure his bride. Male member maximum age limit: 50. Female member age limit: 35. Japan, again you haven't let me down or disappointed me!

http://www.tbnet.co.jp/english/shiori.htm

[CAVEMAN]

You won't get far denigrating the wedding business with this information. Nobody cares except you and the shafted former employees.

Caveman, I like the way you think. On this thread and elsewhere (Iijima Ai thread) your posts are always a pleasure to read (serious-- not being sarcastic).

What do you know about this outfit, is it affiliated in any way with the TBN you mentioned? It's a matchmaking/ o-miai service in Japan under the TBN name. Investigate and report, please. From their web site it looks like it costs the lucky gaijin about U.S. $3800.00 to secure his bride. Male member maximum age limit: 50. Female member age limit: 35. Japan, again you haven't let me down or disappointed me!

http://www.tbnet.co.jp/english/shiori.htm

The matchmaking outfit and the defunct BOKUSHI delivery service are two completely different entities. The bankrupt wedding services frauds were known as TOTAL BRIDAL NETWORK. The matchmakers (bringing together middle-aged Japanese male shlubs and teen-aged poverty-stricken East Asian girls) are TIME BRIDAL NETWORK. Basically the OMIAI service (TIME...) sells slim young Asian women with no prospects (other than Iijima Ai type activity - ha-ha) to guys with the money to pay. These Japanese salarymen, farmers and other socially inept odd-balls, usually lacking in savoire-faire and charm, then have to supply the girl's family with appliances and cash handouts for years to come. I'm in the Tokyo area but I hear that Aomori farmers often buy up these women, since normal Japanese girls want nothing to do with being farmers' wives in cold damp boondocks.

These agencies exist back in the States as well. If you ever see a fat-assed 50-ish goof with eyeglasses and driving a Ford Taurus, wearing an Elmer Fudd style shirt and water-in-the-basement pants next to an Asian woman 30 years younger than he is, and holding a little baby, then you'll know that the woman didn't choose the man because of his hipness and winning personality.

[gaijinalways]

This is an interesting thread. I like the idea of this job, but am wondering how difficult this position is to get in the current economy. The way caveman makes it out, there are jobs waiting to be found, you just need to make the effort to try and get an interview at a local wedding place.

One question my wife was asking, do you have to work every weekend (doesn't sound like it if you only have 5 in February)? Can you sometimes turn down work at certain times of the year (for example, my wife and I often go away in the summer for 4-5 weeks in late July to early August)?

[Tall Tall Tree]

http://www.tbnet.co.jp/english/shiori.htm

The hamburger-and-fries horizontal rule image is total class.

Basically the OMIAI service (TIME...) sells slim young Asian women with no prospects (other than Iijima Ai type activity - ha-ha) to guys with the money to pay. These Japanese salarymen, farmers and other socially inept odd-balls, usually lacking in savoire-faire and charm, then have to supply the girl's family with appliances and cash handouts for years to come. I'm in the Tokyo area but I hear that Aomori farmers often buy up these women, since normal Japanese girls want nothing to do with being farmers' wives in cold damp boondocks.

Actually, going by the text on that site, it seems to only deal in doling out Japanese partners.

his systems are mainly designed for Japanese people.
There are not so many Japanese members who can speak English.
So, some Japanese abilities are required if you want to be our members.

[CAVEMAN]

May be so, but few J-Girls want to get hitched to smelly old troglodyte oyaji whose social graces are limited to grunting, burping and farting.

[CAVEMAN]

This is an interesting thread. I like the idea of this job, but am wondering how difficult this position is to get in the current economy. The way caveman makes it out, there are jobs waiting to be found, you just need to make the effort to try and get an interview at a local wedding place.

One question my wife was asking, do you have to work every weekend (doesn't sound like it if you only have 5 in February)? Can you sometimes turn down work at certain times of the year (for example, my wife and I often go away in the summer for 4-5 weeks in late July to early August)?

How hard is it to get this position "in the current economy"? Try, and you'll see how hard it is. Then come back and tell us.

What you have to do is go out there and find out for yourself, unless an operator of a bridle agency joins Let's Japan and decides to answer your questions here, on this very thread. That I'd like to see.

But seriously, folks, some outfits insist that you do all the weddings assigned. Others give you a schedule, say on the 10th of the month, and then give you until the 25th of the month to say yes or no to the next month's weddings schedule. In this case you might accept all the weddings offered, or maybe pass on 2 or 3 because you have more important things to do, like perform brain surgery or negotiate peace in the Middle East.

There are few weddings in August, although I did 9 last year, which is rather unusual, so you can still take a trip abroad and "like, do Asia, man".

PM me if you want more information.

[gaijinalways]

caveman posted

PM me if you want more information.

Thanks Caveman, I may take you up on the offer and PM you for more details.

caveman posted

here are few weddings in August, although I did 9 last year, which is rather unusual, so you can still take a trip abroad and "like, do Asia, man".

Actually we usually go to Europe, sometimes America, during the summer as we both find the lower humidity and generally lower temperatures is a major plus. Besides, my wife has a major travel bug, so staying home during the school vacation is not her thing.

We do travel in Asia, but that is usually during other seasons. I think my passport is getting tired of getting 'punched' by all those immigration stamps .

[CAVEMAN]

caveman posted

PM me if you want more information.

Thanks Caveman, I may take you up on the offer and PM you for more details.

caveman posted

here are few weddings in August, although I did 9 last year, which is rather unusual, so you can still take a trip abroad and "like, do Asia, man".

Actually we usually go to Europe, sometimes America, during the summer as we both find the lower humidity and generally lower temperatures is a major plus. Besides, my wife has a major travel bug, so staying home during the school vacation is not her thing.

We do travel in Asia, but that is usually during other seasons. I think my passport is getting tired of getting 'punched' by all those immigration stamps .

That's too bad. My passport NEVER never gets stamped when I go to Europe. I've got two of them and the right of residency in all of the EU, one country in North America and Japan. Where will I retire to?

[Billy Smolesworthy]

One question my wife was asking, do you have to work every weekend (doesn't sound like it if you only have 5 in February)? Can you sometimes turn down work at certain times of the year (for example, my wife and I often go away in the summer for 4-5 weeks in late July to early August)?

A very big consideration is how large the company you end up working for is. If you are able to land a job working with a particular chapel, it might prove to be very lucrative as you could be doing every wedding on their books, but in return, they would need you to be available 52 weeks a year. If not you, then who?

But if you sign up with one of the national companies then the situation is different. Many wedding venues prefer to outsource the chapel 'staff' and their are any number of large companies willing to supply a team of organist, singer and celebrant. In that case, you would be one of a roster of celebrants. You would probaly be asked 6 weeks in advance for your availability. In my case, if I have plans for a particular weekend, I just make myself unavailable. The company I work for just shuffles around the several celebrants they have in my prefecture (or in a worse case scenario, some poor bugger is put on a long shinkansen trip). In this situation, it all comes down to how valuable you are to the company - as is true no matter where you work. Taking a break every year might not effect your popularity one bit. Or it could encourage them to find and train somebody else who will give them fewer scheduling headaches.

My advice, just go for it and see how little or much your travel plans affect your employability. No point in letting this concern stop you from trying this very rewarding work.

[CAVEMAN]

My advice, just go for it and see how little or much your travel plans affect your employability. No point in letting this concern stop you from trying this very rewarding work.

__________


Well said. The guy just has to go out there and make his own deal with whoever hires him.

The only way to really find something out about a job is to actually do it.

Regarding his comment about the economy, there's only one economy - your own!

Good Luck to all future slacker fake priests trying to get that weekend gravy!

[CAVEMAN]

Well, I guess "GAIJINALWAYS" turned out to be just blowing smoke. No more posts from him. I guess his trust fund is SO BIG that he don't need no weekend gravy! What a poseur, "travelling the world, man, and, like, chillin' out, man!"!

[jon]

Well, I guess "GAIJINALWAYS" turned out to be just blowing smoke. No more posts from him. I guess his trust fund is SO BIG that he don't need no weekend gravy! What a poseur, "travelling the world, man, and, like, chillin' out, man!"!

Maybe he decided to start his own church instead!

On this note, I have nothing against small house churches given that the whole thing started out that way. Actually, I would consider them preferable, in theory, to established churches. However, I am inclined to agree that those who have a key role in starting such churches often have some kind of desire to hold a special role that they are not necessarily suited to: this is a tendency that somewhat defeats the point of the exercise.

[Porkneck]

Hey, Caveman, Jon, sampler, et al.

I was a wedding Toastmaster in Japan for four years at company X and then became a full-fledged celebrant about four years ago at company Y.

I was quite pleased to see so many good questions and so much accurate information from all of you regarding the topic of this thread. On other boards one is only likely to encounter:

a) Scorn from Christians (fair enough, but a little bit *not in the know*, in my humble opinion)
b) Envy (for lack of a nicer word if one in fact exists) from those who have an inkling of how, in my own ranking:
1) Easy and fun the job is
2) Lucrative it can be if you do it right and take the job seriously
3) Free you are to choose your own schedule every month (at least for the company that I work for)

but choose to rather than give it a shot, would rather not and instead (see b) ).

There are a lot of companies hiring all the time. My best advice is to avoid any kind of *company* that has a *church* or a *priest/pastor* as a front. Go corporate and you will minimize a lot of bullshit down the road......

[CAVEMAN]

You said it.

I don't really discuss my wedding jobs in the "real world" because too many guys are angling to get in on it. They would not hesitate to take away my jobs from me. I am especially quiet when I journey to far away places like Okayama and Shizuoka. No need to tell a local guy in some bar that I've come from Ibaraki to do a wedding because he'll think to himself "Hey man, I can do that job, and the company won't have to pay me for my hotels and transportation. I'm gonna take CAVEMAN's job away from him!"

I usually tell curious GAIJIN types that I'm visiting a friend in hospital, or have come to take soil samples for the World Health Organization. I also rarely tell Japanese people about my part-time gig, because they will invariably wonder aloud about my credentials, which, as you certainly know, are non-existent.

Japanese women involved with Gaijin guys are also not told about what the hell I'm doing in Kamakura or Hakone, because they wil try to get their boyfriends or husbands into the wedding business.

Good Luck to any of you who want to cash in - but I won't help you along.

I do not defend or criticise the wedding business - I merely tell it like it is.

Time for another scotch this morning. My Mondays are free for another 7 weeks.

[majormajormajormajor]

While I agree that the job can be "easy and fun," I believe your statement should be qualified. And I'm not so sure that every Gaijin on the street would be able to handle this job. For starters, he must be able to:

1) stand up in front of a large number of people (up to 150 and more sometimes) and lead the ceremony in such a way that he commands everyone's attention (and respect?). Having a good public speaking voice helps, as does an authoratative presence.
2) ensure that the wedding couple (who are often petrified at first) can feel relaxed in your presence and enjoy the ceremony, while simultaneously feeling the solemnity of the occasion.
3) respond to and handle the many small emergencies which can come up during the course of a wedding, in a smooth and professional manner.
4) get to your wedding in plenty of time (at least one hour beforehand), oftentimes in a city you've never been to before, making sure to catch the right train at the exact time in an unfamiliar station on an unfamiliar line.
5) learn how to constructively spend your waiting time between weddings (sometimes--but rarely, I'll admit--up to five or six hours between the morning one and evening one) in an area which has nothing to occupy you. Some people can go nuts in a situation like that.

I could go on, but all of the above assume a good-to-excellent command of the Japanese language, for the celebrant should be able to communicate well with his coworkers and chapel staff. Everyone involved works together to produce a good wedding, but the celebrant bears the greatest responsibility for a smooth and memorable ceremony. If the Gaijin on the street can handle all of this (and more), he might be able to make some good money as a celebrant, and I invite him to take a shot at it. I'm not worried at all about him taking my job away. I do worry, though, that a weakening economy might cut down on the number of weddings.

[sampler]

Unfortunately, your post can so easily be interpreted as so much lipstick on the proverbial pig. I would preface your list of requirements with the following:

For the Non-Christian contemplating employment as a celebrant

1) Be fully aware that many clients expect you to be a real, bona fide Christian minister, regardless of what the hiring agency will say.
2) You must, in your own conscience, be able to traverse this moral issue. It is not uncommon for celebrants to feel a sense of guilt at first, and rightly so. Sadly, humans have the ability to get accustomed to a second nature after repeatedly breaching their own moral code.
3) If you are an atheist then you are compromising your own belief system by lending credibility to the invocation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
4) Know that this job is not a career, and has few opportunities for promotion/career development.
5) Renumeration is likely to fall, not only because of the economic situation but also due to changing trends in the wedding industry such as 'at home' style events and ceremonies conducted abroad.
6) Skills honed through this work may have little application in other fields of employment.
7) After working as a 'Wedding Priest', any future employer would be wise to question your involvement in an industry which is morally questionable.

..... still, commanding (respect?) is a bonus.

For the Christian contemplating this line of work

There are various ethical issues which would be best addressed by the potential minister before embarking on this particular mission work amongst non-Christians.

1. Understand that pandering to the preference for western men to preside at Christian-style weddings is not helping correct the myth that Christianity is a ‘foreign’ religion.
2. Appreciate the Japanese tendency to view religion as serving people’s convenience. Religious syncretism is rife in Japan and religious form is easily absorbed without the substance. Even unintentionally, giving credence to this may run counter to presenting the radical essence of Christianity.
3. As the matter of legal marriage in Japan is a wholly civil matter; it is quite possible that the participants are actually married a degree of time after their wedding celebration. After receiving blessings from the pastor, the couple's consummation may actually constitute fornication.
4. Pre-event orientation time with the couple is essential to a) explain the Gospel and give time for reflection before the business of the actual celebration and b) to adequately explain the choice of words / prayers which will be used to avoid hypocrisy or misunderstanding.

[BillySmolesworthy]

For the Non-Christian contemplating employment as a celebrant
1) Be fully aware that many clients expect you to be a real, bona fide Christian minister, regardless of what the hiring agency will say.

Or, you could listen to working celebrants like myself, who can state categorically that this point is just one of the many issues that exists only in sampler's outraged moral universe. They also probably have the expectation that you teach with a Bachelor's or Master's degree in TESOL or TEFL. You perform a role; whether you do it wholeheartedly or not is up to you, but a sincere approach will take you far in teaching and much further in the wedding industry.

2) You must, in your own conscience, be able to traverse this moral issue. It is not uncommon for celebrants to feel a sense of guilt at first, and rightly so. Sadly, humans have the ability to get accustomed to a second nature after repeatedly breaching their own moral code.

Yes this is a great moral chasm that you will have to traverse, but once you have passed through this dark night of the soulmake sure you remember that they're paying you over a hundred dollars - you should be willing to go to the trouble of shining your shoes each weekend.

3) If you are an atheist then you are compromising your own belief system by lending credibility to the invocation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This is a great example of sampler's mindset. Athisem is not a 'belief system' but the absence of one. If you are not religious, but you'd like to be involved in helping a couple and their families celebrate their wedding in an ostensibly religious environment, go for it. It's lucrative and emotionally rewarding for the celebrant.

4) Know that this job is not a career, and has few opportunities for promotion/career development.

So what? We should concentrate all our efforts on our eikaiwa careers? This is a fallacious 'straw man' argument. Not one single celebrant on this forum would suggest for a moment that this is a career. Sampler could just as easily use this as an argument against accepting voice work for TV or radio advertising. For a part time job though, marriage celebrancy is a fun way to make a lot of money.

5) Renumeration is likely to fall, not only because of the economic situation but also due to changing trends in the wedding industry such as 'at home' style events and ceremonies conducted abroad.

So what sampler? Then it will be less appealing to gaijin. You make it sound that once committed to doing wedding work, they will somehow be trapped in a downward spiral. Or...maybe they can make hay while the sun shines.

6) Skills honed through this work may have little application in other fields of employment.

And this, sampler believes, is an argument against being paid 10,000 or so an hour. Also, before sampler mentions it, skills honed through this work may have little standing in your election to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, your golf handicap or your Erdős–Bacon number.
But, as well as being sloppy reasoning, it's also quite wrong. The skills you must rely on and develop include public speaking,
flexibilty, problem solving under stress, conversational and teinei Japanese, etc. Which brings me to the final point:

7) After working as a 'Wedding Priest', any future employer would be wise to question your involvement in an industry which is morally questionable.

This sentence is so thick with your moral judgements sampler. Your personal declaration on what constitutes wise and moral not withstanding, any employer that values initiative and creativity would be wowed by some of the war stories an ex-celebrant could bring to a future job interview.

I don't want to impinge on sampler's notes to his fellow Christians, but I have to comment on two points.

Sampler, I have argued with you in this thread that it is only the form that is important at this ceremonies, not the substance. Now you want to have it both ways by saying that we should

Appreciate the Japanese tendency to view religion as serving people’s convenience. Religious syncretism is rife in Japan and religious form is easily absorbed without the substance

Nobody cares about your objections, because nobody but you cares that it's not 'really' Christian in anything but style. This has been the theme of my response to you.

And this beauty:

As the matter of legal marriage in Japan is a wholly civil matter; it is quite possible that the participants are actually married a degree of time after their wedding celebration. After receiving blessings from the pastor, the couple's consummation may actually constitute fornication.

Not to mention the hundred times they did it before the wedding day.

[sampler]

Or, you could listen to working celebrants like myself, who can state categorically that this point is just one of the many issues that exists only in sampler's outraged moral universe.

I have never minded being a 'voice in the wilderness', but you are forgetting the testimony of Japanese sources I have quoted on this thread on my blog and other anecdotal evidence I could proffer from Japanese friends and relatives. You are simply wrong to suggest that these issues exist only in my moral universe.

..once you have passed through this dark night of the soul make sure you remember that they're paying you over a hundred dollars -

Really? A 100 bucks? What a pittance in comparison to doing the right thing. Is that all it takes to sell out? Take a look in that Bible; it says “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet forfeit his soul?” It's quite sad really. Read your post again, you acknowledge that a moral leap (downwards) has to be made but that a sincere approach will take you far. It doesn't add up Billy. Maybe you will reply saying that I missed your tone and meaning but it doesn't change the fact that many fake priests do have to make this moral transition.

Athisem is not a 'belief system' but the absence of one.

If you insist, substitute non-theist for atheist. The point stands.

You make it sound that once committed to doing wedding work, they will somehow be trapped in a downward spiral. Or...maybe they can make hay while the sun shines.

This hand-to-mouth short termism is the downfall of many. Why not spend your weekends developing real skills that will take you way beyond the season and put you in good stead for the future. It is regrettable not to see the signs and fail to observe the changing markets and trends.

The skills you must rely on and develop include public speaking, flexibilty, problem solving under stress, conversational and teinei Japanese, etc.

Delivering the same scripted speech ad nauseum or some variation of the theme does not equate the art of public speaking. Flexibility and problem solving under stress? --- no more than any other functional adult in the modern world. Conversational and teinei Japanese? We live in Japan. We develop these skills without ever having to don a robe. It’s as natural as breathing. No one living here has to become a celebrant to flag this up as a skill.

And what are these 'war stories'? More than a hint of melodrama there I suppose. Perhaps the readers of LJ would like to be wowed by them, fire away, we're all ears. CAVEMAN had a few, most involved copious amounts of alcohol and breath mints IIRC.

Your personal declaration on what constitutes wise and moral not withstanding,

Think of half a dozen old school mates, people from your hometown who you haven’t seen in twenty years. Picture yourself telling them that you dress up as a Priest and perform mock Christian weddings and then watch their reaction. Of course, … they may be too polite to give away their true impression… Tatemae is not confined to Japan alone.

This sentence is so thick with your moral judgements sampler.

Yes, so what? We are moral beings and we make moral judgements about things on a daily basis. Search 'Rapeplay' on these boards for more evidence of this.

Sampler, I have argued with you in this thread that it is only the form that is important at this ceremonies, not the substance. Now you want to have it both ways by saying that we should..

No Billy. That was a word to Christians who cannot have it both ways. It seems that you can though Billy --- didn't you promise not to 'argue with sampler'?

[BillySmolesworthy]

Really? A 100 bucks? What a pittance in comparison to doing the right thing. Take a look in that Bible; it says “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet forfeit his soul?”

So your thrust is that this is soul destroying and fornication-enabling. You make me think of the great article on The Onion at the moment, titled: Street Evangelist Saves 300 Souls From Enjoying Park.

It's quite sad really. Read your post again, you acknowledge that a moral leap (downwards) has to be made but that a sincere approach will take you far. It doesn't add up Billy. Maybe you will reply saying that I missed your tone and meaning but it doesn't change the fact that many fake priests do have to make this moral transition.

This is why it's so tiresome responding to you. I figured that the language of my comment would hint at the sarcasm. I mean, come on! 'great moral chasm ...to traverse', 'this dark night of the soul'. You are so earnest that you assume everyone is as all wrought up as you are - when in fact, you are having your own private conversation/crusade. You LOVE being a 'voice in the wilderness'. The evils of the metric system, the young earth, whatever - we all need a hobby. And you railing at fornicators keeps you out of the Area 51 Conspiracy chat rooms I suppose.

Maybe you will reply saying that I missed your tone and meaning but it doesn't change the fact that many fake priests do have to make this moral transition.

Damn! I hate being so predictable. So let them make this moral transition if they feel there is one. Or not, if not.

This hand-to-mouth short termism is the downfall of many. Why not spend your weekends developing real skills that will take you way beyond the season and put you in good stead for the future. It is regrettable not to see the signs and fail to observe the changing markets and trends.

Thus sayeth the Lord. You are making less and less sense now. List the economic objections to making lots of money on the weekend, and you sound innocent and adorable, but this nonsense makes me wonder if you've had your locusts and honey this morning.

Delivering the same scripted speech ad nauseum or some variation of the theme does not equate the art of public speaking. Flexibility and problem solving under stress? --- no more than any other functional adult in the modern world. Conversational and teinei Japanese? We live in Japan. We develop these skills without ever having to don a robe. It’s as natural as breathing. No one living here has to become a celebrant to flag this up as a skill.

Now you're just being a dick.
You don't have a clue about the demands of being a wedding celebrant. Not a clue. But you have the confidence of the True Believer to guage the level of flexibilty and problem solving skills under pressure in that profession. You don't know and can't know. If you have an opinion based on imagination, yet express it as fact, you are an arrogant dick.

Think of half a dozen old school mates, people from your hometown who you haven’t seen in twenty years. Picture yourself telling them that you dress up as a Priest and perform mock Christian weddings and then watch their reaction. Of course, … they may be too polite to give away their true impression… Tatemae is not confined to Japan alone.

Every time I visit home, I entertain my friends and family with tales of the wedding industry in Japan. There's no denying that the Japanese love of White Weddings is odd to westerners, so it makes for engrossing table talk. You are projecting your sad little convictions onto the whole world sampler. Now picture yourself among your old school friends, who are trying to catch up over a few beers, while you keep climbing onto the furniture to exhort them to flee from the evils of fornication and Eikaiwa Christmas parties that aren't Christ centered.

And what are these 'war stories'? More than a hint of melodrama there I suppose. Perhaps the readers of LJ would like to be wowed by them, fire away, we're all ears. CAVEMAN had a few, most involved copious amounts of alcohol and breath mints IIRC.

Yeah, that Caveman was a real gem wasn't he? And as you are willing to use him as an example of wedding celebrants, I'll use him as an example of Eikaiwa teachers, which reflects poorly on you, I must say.
My sarcasm detector is much more developed than yours, sampler. I think you are overstating your enthusiasm for comic effect. If MMMMajor wants to PM me, I'd be glad to give him the details of the Facebook group for Foreign Bokushi where there is no shortage of melodrama. And camaraderie. And information. And a free-flowing exchange of ideas.

didn't you promise not to 'argue with sampler'?

Yeah. Guilty.

[sampler]

This is why it's so tiresome responding to you.

Then why do you keep coming back at me?

--- - when in fact, you are having your own private conversation/crusade.

See the above.

And you railing at fornicators..

Reference please.

So let them make this moral transition if they feel there is one. Or not, if not.

Of course.

Now you're just being a dick.... you are an arrogant dick.

Keep them ad hominems coming!

You don't have a clue about the demands of being a wedding celebrant. Not a clue.

Well OK, I suppose experience of doing week-in-week-out real priesting and standing in front of a congregation every Sunday for over ten years and being involved in the full spectrum of pastoral duties doesn't count.

Now picture yourself among your old school friends, who are trying to catch up over a few beers, while you keep climbing onto the furniture to exhort them to flee from the evils of fornication and Eikaiwa Christmas parties that aren't Christ centered.

Now why would I want to do that? I'd rather

[BillySmolesworthy]

When I say 'private conversation', it's because you're in your own little bubble of indignation. Nobody but you sees white weddings as anything but an occasion for families and couples to celebrate something momentous and joyful. But for you, it's not enough for them to be happy, it has to satisfy your personal worldview too. The same reasoning dictates that gay couples shouldn't be married. It would make them happy but not Christians, and Christians reserve the right to decide who can and cannot be happy. Your opposition to white weddings comes from the same biblical impetus to impose your personal beliefs on an (indifferent) world.

I hope you're not a Catholic priest sampler, because your use of latin is crap. An ad hominem attack doesn't just mean calling someone a dick. Actually, I was calling you out on being a dick. An ad hominem attack is arguing that your point is not valid because you're a dick, instead of because it's flawed. I said that you are an ignorant dick and then explained why. You are dismissive of what we do even though you have no idea how challenging it can be. To say that my claims aren't true because you say they're not is a child's argument. "Flexibility and problem solving under stress? --- no more than any other functional adult in the modern world." No, you're an ignorant dick.

And it's great that you'd want to share a beer rather than lecture them on the technicalities of fornication. But we were playing the Phantasy Conversation Game, and it was my turn. Remember your phantasy? The one where everybody secretly agrees with you because you're righteous and they all squirm uncomfortably in their chairs when I talk about white weddings? Yeah, well I think mine is more probable, because there's no way you'd leave your circle of friends alone if they had an opinion contrary to yours (and Jesus).