Canadians with kids in Japan beware

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senseiman
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Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by senseiman » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:30 pm

If (like me) you are a Canadian with kids in Japan who have dual nationality beware that their Canadian citizenship might prevent them from actually entering Canada thanks to a recent rule change:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/dual ... tizens.asp

My kid doesn't have a Canadian passport (he travels on a Japanese one because it is f---ed up difficult to get a Canadian one for a kid born abroad) and I was just made aware that until he gets one (which will take 6-12 months) he can't enter Canada. This is the most ridiculous rule change I have ever seen. My friend who is in the same situation just had to throw away two (non refundable) tickets back to Canada because he wasn't aware of the rule change and now doesn't have enough time to get his kid a passport.

So thought I'd throw that out there in case anyone else missed it, beware, they are kicking kids off of planes now to enforce this shit (not United style, but still pretty awful: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3895332 ).
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久しからず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by Shawn » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:19 am

Looks like I dodged a bullet, then. The first thing I did when I got my kids's citizenship was to also get their passports. It's not that big of a hassle and I received the passports in about 20 days.

But what am I missing here? Are people with dual citizenship trying to enter Canada on their Japanese passport? If that's the case, then I don't blame Immigration. If you want to enter Canada as a Canadian, you need a Canadian passport, right? WIth the way the rules are now, dual citizens will need to bring both passports when they travel.

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by senseiman » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:01 pm

Shawn wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:19 am
But what am I missing here? Are people with dual citizenship trying to enter Canada on their Japanese passport? If that's the case, then I don't blame Immigration. If you want to enter Canada as a Canadian, you need a Canadian passport, right? WIth the way the rules are now, dual citizens will need to bring both passports when they travel.
Most of the Canadians with kids born in Japan I know only have Japanese passports for their kids (including myself). Its just way simpler to get a Japanese passport for them (the Canadian passport itself isn't hard to get but the certificate of citizenship is time consuming and requires more paperwork and cost - translating documents, getting them notarized, etc.). I've met two Canadian dads here whose travel plans have been put in jeopardy because they had been taking their kids to Canada on their Japanese passport for years without problems and now they suddenly find out (in both cases through me telling them) that their kids can't enter Canada that way anymore.

I don't understand why a dual citizen cannot visit Canada with their other passport, can you explain to me the functional rationale for banning them from doing so? It actually creates an absurd situation. My son would have no problem entering Canada on the passport he has if he wasn't Canadian. But because he IS Canadian, he can't enter Canada without spending hundreds of dollars and several months on this process. His Canadian citizenship thus makes it more rather than less difficult for him to enter Canada. That makes no sense to me, especially since I haven't seen anyone articulate what was wrong with the previous system (allowing dual citizens to enter on either passport) that necessitated this change.
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久しからず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by Shawn » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:29 am

senseiman wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:01 pm
Most of the Canadians with kids born in Japan I know only have Japanese passports for their kids (including myself). Its just way simpler to get a Japanese passport for them (the Canadian passport itself isn't hard to get but the certificate of citizenship is time consuming and requires more paperwork and cost - translating documents, getting them notarized, etc.). I've met two Canadian dads here whose travel plans have been put in jeopardy because they had been taking their kids to Canada on their Japanese passport for years without problems and now they suddenly find out (in both cases through me telling them) that their kids can't enter Canada that way anymore.
OK, I think I am missing something here. Even if you are a Canadian citizen, how would Canadian Immigration know about your dual citizenship if you decided to simply travel with just your Japanese passport? For a short-term trip, this wouldn't be a problem, would it? If we're talking a long-term stay or move, then it becomes a problem.

Pre-2016, this is what I did with my kids. They were born in Japan so we naturally got them Japanese passports. I eventually got around to applying for their Canadian citizenship and their Canadian passports, and once the kids had both passports, I made sure to bring both just in case.
senseiman wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:01 pm
I don't understand why a dual citizen cannot visit Canada with their other passport, can you explain to me the functional rationale for banning them from doing so? It actually creates an absurd situation. My son would have no problem entering Canada on the passport he has if he wasn't Canadian. But because he IS Canadian, he can't enter Canada without spending hundreds of dollars and several months on this process. His Canadian citizenship thus makes it more rather than less difficult for him to enter Canada. That makes no sense to me, especially since I haven't seen anyone articulate what was wrong with the previous system (allowing dual citizens to enter on either passport) that necessitated this change.
I agree it's a pain in the ass, but let me answer the question with another question: Why do you think you should be let into the country without any proof of citizenship? If you're using your other passport, you can enter as a foreign visitor but not a citizen, right?

But my short-in-the-dark guess is that it is security related. Canada is really loose (lax?) in its rules and regulations. It's easy to get PR or dual citizenship in Canada and easy to abuse it. To enter Canada from Japan on your Canadian passport, you would have to check-in with your Canadian passport, right? By checking in with a Canadian passport, you are effectively saying that you are a foreigner, so how do you explain to Immigration at the airport that you have no landing card or other ID proving you are in Japan legally? You can get around this by presenting both passports. I think we have reached a point now where citizen and customer data can be quickly cross-checked on massive databases.

Poor James Bond--he'd have to check in with 10 different passports if he wanted to fly anywhere these days. :lol:

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by senseiman » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:14 pm

Shawn wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:29 am

OK, I think I am missing something here. Even if you are a Canadian citizen, how would Canadian Immigration know about your dual citizenship if you decided to simply travel with just your Japanese passport? For a short-term trip, this wouldn't be a problem, would it? If we're talking a long-term stay or move, then it becomes a problem.
For an adult dual citizen they could probably get away with it. But for people in my situation, if I travel to Canada with my son it is going to be obvious that he is a Canadian citizen even if he is carrying a Japanese passport because his father is Canadian.
Shawn wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:29 am
I agree it's a pain in the ass, but let me answer the question with another question: Why do you think you should be let into the country without any proof of citizenship? If you're using your other passport, you can enter as a foreign visitor but not a citizen, right?
No, you can't even enter as a foreign visitor on your other passport now. All entry is forbidden They are literally throwing 5 year old kids off of airplanes at Narita these days because of this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3895332

I learned about this rule change directly from someone at the Tokyo Embassy who I was meeting on unrelated business. According to him, the embassy is being swamped these days by calls from people (a lot of them parents in my situation) being denied boarding to flights to Canada at the airport for this reason. The roll out of this policy has been a giant cluster fuck for everyone since almost nobody has been made aware of this rule change despite the obvious serious implications it has.
Shawn wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:29 am

But my short-in-the-dark guess is that it is security related. Canada is really loose (lax?) in its rules and regulations. It's easy to get PR or dual citizenship in Canada and easy to abuse it. To enter Canada from Japan on your Canadian passport, you would have to check-in with your Canadian passport, right? By checking in with a Canadian passport, you are effectively saying that you are a foreigner, so how do you explain to Immigration at the airport that you have no landing card or other ID proving you are in Japan legally? You can get around this by presenting both passports. I think we have reached a point now where citizen and customer data can be quickly cross-checked on massive databases.

Poor James Bond--he'd have to check in with 10 different passports if he wanted to fly anywhere these days. :lol:
My friend theorizes that it is mostly political and part of a broader push against the rights of dual citizens started under the Harper government that has nothing to do with Japan (this applies to dual citizens from any country, embassies in other countries are equally burdened by it). The largest number of dual citizens are from countries like Lebanon and many of them have little connection to Canada (never lived there, etc). After the 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon this became an issue particularly for conservatives in Canada since there were a lot of Dual Canadian-Lebanese citizens caught up in that and the Canadian government spent a huge amount of money evacuating them. This upset some within the then government who have been rolling back rights of dual citizens ever since. This includes:

1) the children of dual citizens born outside of Canada no longer get Canadian citizenship (since 2009 I think). So if my son has children in Japan, they won't be Canadian citizens. This rule puts Canada outside of the norm among Western democracies.
2) Canadian citizens resident outside of Canada for 5 years (dual or not) lose their voting rights (this rule is older but only began to be enforced under Harper). Again, Canada is outside the international norm on this one.
3) This new rule about only being able to enter Canada on your Canadian passport (implemented under Trudeau actually but planned during the Harper years). Its probably designed not for security reasons but specifically to make it more difficult for dual citizens to get into Canada for political reasons. Dual Japanese-Canadians aren't part of that political calculation but are just collateral damage.

In the end I am going to do what you did and get a Canadian passport for my kid, but this alarms me in the overall context of Canadians overseas having their rights slowly stripped away by the government.
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久しからず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by Shawn » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:08 am

senseiman wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:14 pm

No, you can't even enter as a foreign visitor on your other passport now. All entry is forbidden They are literally throwing 5 year old kids off of airplanes at Narita these days because of this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c ... -1.3895332
Yikes. That could have very easily been me.
senseiman wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:14 pm
I learned about this rule change directly from someone at the Tokyo Embassy who I was meeting on unrelated business. According to him, the embassy is being swamped these days by calls from people (a lot of them parents in my situation) being denied boarding to flights to Canada at the airport for this reason. The roll out of this policy has been a giant cluster fuck for everyone since almost nobody has been made aware of this rule change despite the obvious serious implications it has.
Go figure, eh? Roll out a big change in policy, don't tell anyone. :FU: All I can say is that I feel lucky this never happened to my family.

senseiman wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:14 pm
My friend theorizes that it is mostly political and part of a broader push against the rights of dual citizens started under the Harper government that has nothing to do with Japan (this applies to dual citizens from any country, embassies in other countries are equally burdened by it). The largest number of dual citizens are from countries like Lebanon and many of them have little connection to Canada (never lived there, etc). After the 2006 Israeli invasion of Lebanon this became an issue particularly for conservatives in Canada since there were a lot of Dual Canadian-Lebanese citizens caught up in that and the Canadian government spent a huge amount of money evacuating them. This upset some within the then government who have been rolling back rights of dual citizens ever since. This includes:

1) the children of dual citizens born outside of Canada no longer get Canadian citizenship (since 2009 I think). So if my son has children in Japan, they won't be Canadian citizens. This rule puts Canada outside of the norm among Western democracies.
2) Canadian citizens resident outside of Canada for 5 years (dual or not) lose their voting rights (this rule is older but only began to be enforced under Harper). Again, Canada is outside the international norm on this one.
3) This new rule about only being able to enter Canada on your Canadian passport (implemented under Trudeau actually but planned during the Harper years). Its probably designed not for security reasons but specifically to make it more difficult for dual citizens to get into Canada for political reasons. Dual Japanese-Canadians aren't part of that political calculation but are just collateral damage.

In the end I am going to do what you did and get a Canadian passport for my kid, but this alarms me in the overall context of Canadians overseas having their rights slowly stripped away by the government.
I suspect your friend is right and is what I was ultimately driving at. The rule change you mention in 1) caught my attention when I was doing my kids' citizenship. Pretty unfair if you ask me. It seems like the trend is to slowly put the squeeze on dual citizenship, and if you're out of the country for any appreciable length of time, don't bother coming back. :sad:

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by allblacks » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:29 am

This has nothing to do with my situation but made me realize I have to do something about my son's NZ passport. Just in case they change the rules in NZ.
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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by senseiman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:30 pm

Shawn wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:08 am

I suspect your friend is right and is what I was ultimately driving at. The rule change you mention in 1) caught my attention when I was doing my kids' citizenship. Pretty unfair if you ask me. It seems like the trend is to slowly put the squeeze on dual citizenship, and if you're out of the country for any appreciable length of time, don't bother coming back. :sad:
Yeah that really is the worst. A friend who is an expert on immigration policy tells me that rule is almost unique to Canada.

I suspect this deterioration of our rights is politically tolerated because Canadians seem to have a lot of antipathy towards Canadians who leave Canada. Probably this is traceable to Wayne Gretzky being traded to the LA Kings, probably the most devastating event in Canadian history. After that, the whole idea of Canadians leaving Canada became taboo.
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久しからず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by Shawn » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:58 am

senseiman wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:30 pm

Yeah that really is the worst. A friend who is an expert on immigration policy tells me that rule is almost unique to Canada.
That's quite the revelation given that Canadians like to talk about what a free and open society they live in.
senseiman wrote:
Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:30 pm
I suspect this deterioration of our rights is politically tolerated because Canadians seem to have a lot of antipathy towards Canadians who leave Canada. Probably this is traceable to Wayne Gretzky being traded to the LA Kings, probably the most devastating event in Canadian history. After that, the whole idea of Canadians leaving Canada became taboo.
You're linking this to the Wayne Gretzky trade? I'd like to see some research on that. :P
If leaving Canada is taboo, then there are more than a few of us here that are outcasts. :cheers:

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by senseiman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:37 am

Shawn wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:58 am

That's quite the revelation given that Canadians like to talk about what a free and open society they live in.
The scary thing is that even Trump's America hasn't gone that far.
Shawn wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:58 am
You're linking this to the Wayne Gretzky trade? I'd like to see some research on that. :P
If leaving Canada is taboo, then there are more than a few of us here that are outcasts. :cheers:
Nothing that would pass peer review, but I think it makes sense. Not just Gretzky, but there is that part of our culture which kind of resents it when Canadians get succesful and inevitably leave the country for the US. Actors, comedians, musicians, athletes, etc - our best always end up in the US and I think that puts this sense of betrayal in every Canadian's heart when they see one of us leaving, thus making it easier to rationalize stripping rights away from those that do. Its definitely one of the reasons the Tragically Hip are Canada's most popular band - the fact that they stayed in Canada and never tried to make it big in the US has elevated them to deity-like status.
祇園精舎の鐘の聲、諸行無常の響あり。娑羅雙樹の花の色、盛者必衰のことわりをあらはす。おごれる人も久しからず、唯春の夜の夢のごとし。たけき者も遂にほろびぬ、偏に風の前の塵に同じ。

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Re: Canadians with kids in Japan beware

Unread post by Shawn » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:32 am

senseiman wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:37 am

The scary thing is that even Trump's America hasn't gone that far.
Yeah, they just pull you over for driving while not being white and shoot you. Just because. But seriously, I suppose the US has yet to change their stance on citizenship. It's something they have been struggling with for a long time, and I would not be surprised if they managed to change them. Eventually. The current administration notwithstanding.
senseiman wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:37 am
Nothing that would pass peer review, but I think it makes sense. Not just Gretzky, but there is that part of our culture which kind of resents it when Canadians get succesful and inevitably leave the country for the US. Actors, comedians, musicians, athletes, etc - our best always end up in the US and I think that puts this sense of betrayal in every Canadian's heart when they see one of us leaving, thus making it easier to rationalize stripping rights away from those that do. Its definitely one of the reasons the Tragically Hip are Canada's most popular band - the fact that they stayed in Canada and never tried to make it big in the US has elevated them to deity-like status.
I get this, but hasn't that always been the case in Canada? Maybe betrayal is the wrong word. Jealously might be better. It's a small country with a small market. The United States is the Big Leagues, so to speak. Can you blame an actor or athlete for wanting to make it in the USA? That's where the money and fame is.

Not leaving Canada would seem to be a reason for why the Hip have a cult following, and it makes me wonder if they would have been regarded as sellouts if they had made it big in the United States. I remember their first appearance on Saturday Night Live and scratched my head at their choice of singing "New Orleans is Sinking." That appearance didn't seem to do anything for their exposure.

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