And the next leader of the free world will be...

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And the next leader of the free world will be...

Obama. I am hoping it'll be Obama.
23
47%
Obama. However, I am hoping it'll be McCain.
1
2%
McCain. I am hoping it'll be McCain.
3
6%
McCain. However, I am hoping it'll be Obama.
8
16%
*Yawn*
14
29%
 
Total votes: 49

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And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Mogura » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:31 pm

Well, now that's decided...

Anyway, a quick very unscientific poll to see what everyone's thoughts are.

You don't have to be a citizen of the US of A to participate in the poll...
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by MacGyver » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:42 pm

I can't see Americans electing a black man, just as I can't see them electing a women (white or otherwise). Although its fair to say that the time is right for it to happen now. Its the unloseable election for a democratic candidate but then funnier things have happened...

For the record, if I were American, I'd vote for Obama. In fact I've already read one of his books.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Touchstone » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:44 pm

I hope to fuck that it's Obama. Not that nasty old bastard McCain! :evil: Of course, if Obama really does try to change things ie. take on the Industrial Military Complex then he may end with a new hole in his head.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Touchstone » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:45 pm

Ideally though, Ralph Nader. That really would shake things up. Never happen though.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by sirwanksalot » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:18 pm

Nothing wrong with McCain. Just wrong party affiliation and a bit too old. I'm sure he's a nice enough guy. He reminds me of Grandpa Munster. Obama will be the next pres. He reminds me of Kennedy even though I'm too young.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Touchstone » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:39 pm

Nothing wrong with McCain? The guys a knob. He's a pompous old military butthole. Bomb, bomb, bomb....bomb, bomb Iran.

Edit:typo
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:50 pm

I'm hoping for Obama. McCain is simply more of George Bush.

Prediction: Obama is a far better speaker and thinker in my opinion. He should kick McCain's ass in any debate or discussion on the issues of the day. Within the next 5 months, McCain's temper will get the best of him, and he will say something stupid that will sink his campaign. :devil:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:53 am

MacGyver wrote:I can't see Americans electing a black man, just as I can't see them electing a women (white or otherwise).
:roll:

The British, Germans, Indians and Pakistani folks have all elected women. Are we any less "enlightened" than them? It will happen when the time is right; now was not Hillary's time.

But, of course, if Hillary had got the nomination and then lost the presidency, it would have been because America is a sexist chauvinistic patriarchal pre-civilization and not because she somehow managed to fumble all support from the base her surname gave her, just like if Obama loses it will be because America is an inherently racist WASP society where token black men are occasionally placed on a pedestal but always chained back up before they can attain serious positions of power and not because he's an ivy-league leftist with enough shady associates to fill a speakeasy. America can never win in the eyes of haters like you.
Its the unloseable election for a democratic candidate but then funnier things have happened...
A "poll of polls" shows Obama in the lead with two percentage points. You may think this is the Dems' race to lose, but remember, such was the case in the 2000 race -- and they lost it.
Shawn wrote:Prediction: Obama is a far better speaker and thinker in my opinion. He should kick McCain's ass in any debate or discussion on the issues of the day.
You're right, he's a damn eloquent speaker -- when he's got a teleprompter. He's a bit less god-like when he has to wing it -- ever seen/heard any footage of him doing that?

McCain has challenged Obama to a series of town hall debates; totally unscripted with question prompts from the attendees. Last I heard, Obama had yet to respond, but if he does I'll bet he'll say no because speaking off cue is not a strong point for the guy.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by MacGyver » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:01 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:
MacGyver wrote:I can't see Americans electing a black man, just as I can't see them electing a women (white or otherwise).
:roll:

The British, Germans, Indians and Pakistani folks have all elected women. Are we any less "enlightened" than them?
The sad truth is yes. I hope that the American ppl prove me wrong but I'm skeptical. And no I don't hate America. The fact that its taken this long for it to possibly happen (remembering that it hasn't happened yet) proves my point. I just don't think that rightly or wrongly the majority of Americans (certainly in terms of winning the White House, which you don't actually need to win the popular vote to do) can see past race or sex. In fact I'd go as far as to say that a non-Christian or outwardly Atheist person couldn't win either. I'm not sure why that opinion, which I've heard more than a few Americans express, makes me an American hater. I guess in your narrow conservative world anyone who disagrees with your country must hate it. Midnight Oil wrote a good song about that. "My Country Right or Wrong" it was called.

Edited to add that the British form of government is different from the US form. In the Westminster system, a Prime Minister is not directly elected, hence the British ppl did not elect a woman. It was her party that elected her. Ditto for India.
Its the unloseable election for a democratic candidate but then funnier things have happened...
Tall Tall Tree wrote:A "poll of polls" shows Obama in the lead with two percentage points. You may think this is the Dems' race to lose, but remember, such was the case in the 2000 race -- and they lost it.
The 2000 race was far more loseable than this race. The economy is in the toilet, an expense and unpopular war is being fought, health care is in dire need of fixing, more and more people are becoming working poor...the list goes on. This administration has caused some of the problems and certainly has exacerbated others. Hopefully Americans will look past race and elect Obama. But when the level of debate on the conservative side is as low as it is, I won't hold my breath.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:25 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:You're right, he's a damn eloquent speaker -- when he's got a teleprompter. He's a bit less god-like when he has to wing it -- ever seen/heard any footage of him doing that?

McCain has challenged Obama to a series of town hall debates; totally unscripted with question prompts from the attendees. Last I heard, Obama had yet to respond, but if he does I'll bet he'll say no because speaking off cue is not a strong point for the guy.
Actually, I can't say I've seen Obama "unplugged." Got any links?

From what I've seen of McCain, he's a piss-poor speaker. The speech he gave the other day was atrocious. I still think Obama will run circles around him.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:54 pm

MacGyver wrote:Edited to add that the British form of government is different from the US form. In the Westminster system, a Prime Minister is not directly elected, hence the British ppl did not elect a woman. It was her party that elected her. Ditto for India.
Okay, my mistake. I just listed the first few countries that came to mind that had female heads of state and didn't stop to consider if they had been directly elected.
Hopefully Americans will look past race and elect Obama. But when the level of debate on the conservative side is as low as it is, I won't hold my breath.
…But see, there you go. You're already saying that if Obama loses, it must be because of race. What if we do get past race and decide we just don't like the guy? Please at least acknowledge the possibility.

Boy, good thing Condi Rice decided she didn't want to run on our side. You'd be all in a heap.
Actually, I can't say I've seen Obama "unplugged." Got any links?
Well, any link I find is going to be biased by virtue of me being the one posting it. But poking about YouTube should reveal some stuff.

(Nonetheless, here's one tl;dr article along with radio and TV clips. But it should be noted that the organization that runs this site is "dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media," according to their About Us page.)

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by MacGyver » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:50 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:…But see, there you go. You're already saying that if Obama loses, it must be because of race. What if we do get past race and decide we just don't like the guy? Please at least acknowledge the possibility.
Chances of that are slim. The main reason why ppl won't vote for him is because of his skin colour, not his policies. As an American was saying to me just now at lunch, many Americans are closet racists. They may not overtly express their doubts about Obama's policies and leadership because of the colour of his skin, but once they are alone in that poling booth...
Tall Tall Tree wrote:Boy, good thing Condi Rice decided she didn't want to run on our side. You'd be all in a heap.
Not sure why me or anyone else would be in a heap if she ran. I couldn't see her winning the GOP ticket anyway. Perhaps a democratic ticket but not GOP. She might be able to run one day but at the moment she's got too much baggage from Bush beyond the fact that she's a woman and black. I think she's an intelligent woman but I do think she would be a disaster for the US and the world.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Haterade » Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:11 pm

Just to give you an idea of minorities and the GOP...

There is no viable minority candidate running for political office for the GOP except for the current/incumbent Gov of Louisiana. That includes the 49 other Governors, 102 Senators, 500+ US Representatives...
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:41 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:(Nonetheless, here's one tl;dr article along with radio and TV clips. But it should be noted that the organization that runs this site is "dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media," according to their About Us page.)
I'll poke around, but dude, that video clip is introduced by Rush Limbaugh!! :lol: The guy is a clown. Obama certainly stumbles a bit, but that's nothing compared to the bastardization of the English language by Bush. :mrgreen:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by kunikun » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:36 pm

The republicans scare the hell out of me. Go Obama Go!

The worrying thing i have heard is that many Clinton supporters have said they wont vote for Obama! Thats what my Mum would call "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:33 am

MacGyver wrote:
Tall Tall Tree wrote:…But see, there you go. You're already saying that if Obama loses, it must be because of race. What if we do get past race and decide we just don't like the guy? Please at least acknowledge the possibility.
Chances of that are slim. The main reason why ppl won't vote for him is because of his skin colour, not his policies. As an American was saying to me just now at lunch, many Americans are closet racists. They may not overtly express their doubts about Obama's policies and leadership because of the colour of his skin, but once they are alone in that poling booth...
You're continuing to prove my point. You've already decided that Americans are knuckle-dragging cross-burning racists and are incapable of being anything else. Your cries of "prejudice!" are exposing your own prejudices. There's no way I can have any further discussion with you on this point (though I probably should have been smart enough to get started in the first place).
Haterade wrote:Just to give you an idea of minorities and the GOP...

There is no viable minority candidate running for political office for the GOP except for the current/incumbent Gov of Louisiana. That includes the 49 other Governors, 102 Senators, 500+ US Representatives...
…But who's counting people by the color of their skin, right?

Funny thing about Bobby Jindal, that governor… Despite being an Indian (of the India variety) and a Catholic, he was still elected to the highest position in the state of Louisiana -- you know, one of those backward southern states where all the WASP racists supposedly live. One of the first states to secede and join the Confederacy.
Shawn wrote:I'll poke around, but dude, that video clip is introduced by Rush Limbaugh!! :lol: The guy is a clown. Obama certainly stumbles a bit, but that's nothing compared to the bastardization of the English language by Bush. :mrgreen:
Heh, see what I mean? But keep watching; some of the other clips are from less-biased sources. The one at the end for the Today Show or some similar news program is the best example.
kunikun wrote:The worrying thing i have heard is that many Clinton supporters have said they wont vote for Obama! Thats what my Mum would call "cutting off your nose to spite your face".
…And many outspoken Republicans who didn't like McCain said they'd vote for Hillary before voting for McCain (this was back when Hillary was still expected to win the Dem nomination). No worries, though; both of them are fulla shit.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by oyabaka » Sat Jun 07, 2008 2:00 am

Shawn wrote: Actually, I can't say I've seen Obama "unplugged." Got any links?

From what I've seen of McCain, he's a piss-poor speaker. The speech he gave the other day was atrocious. I still think Obama will run circles around him.
Here's an article in the Wall Street Journal about his gaffes- http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1212109 ... mmentaries

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by MacGyver » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:59 am

Tall Tall Tree wrote:There's no way I can have any further discussion with you on this point (though I probably should have been smart enough to get started in the first place).
Nah your mistake was to talk about a subject you obviously know little about. The fact that you mentioned in another thread that one of the most important issues for you (certainly used in the context of distinguishing GOP candidates) was tax reform and taxes in general was quite revealing. If I were able to vote in the upcoming election, I think that would probably be point #135 for me. There are so many more important issues at stake yet for you tax is one of the most important. Especially considering that you are in a pretty low tax bracket in the first place. But it does say volumes about your understanding of the political parties and their ideologies. Someone in your position should be voting democrat, not republican. The GOP don't believe in helping the little guy; conservatives believe that by helping the ppl at the top of the income tree money wealth will filter down to help the little guy, which explains conservative tax breaks to the wealthy. It also explains many other their other policies and the failure of those policies, but that's a lesson for another day. The adherence to capitalistic principles and the overall capitalistic nature of the American political system also explains why so many in American society fall through the gaps. I'm sure a book like Politics for Dummies would probably explain all that quite clearly and simply so maybe you should grab a copy? Once you've read that then maybe we can have a discussion about race and politics because that gets a little more complicated and usually an understanding of the basic principles at very least is required; knowing that the Westminster system is different from a presidential republic is also a good start. :roll: :hohum:
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Haterade » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:27 am

The trickle-down effect does not work... That's why tax-cuts don't help the lower-class; if they're that low, they don't pay taxes anyway and if you're in the middle you don't see a huge impact.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:18 am

Haterade wrote:The trickle-down effect does not work... That's why tax-cuts don't help the lower-class; if they're that low, they don't pay taxes anyway and if you're in the middle you don't see a huge impact.
Are you making an argument against tax cuts? :huh:

The trickle-down effect has little to do with reducing the tax burden on people in lower brackets. Rather, the idea is that by reducing taxes on the wealthiest people, they will have more disposable income to spend and put back into the economy. If Paul Allen's taxes are cut and he decides to buy another car, that money "trickles down" to the car dealer, the car manufacturer (assuming it's domestically made), the guy who shipped the car from the factory to the dealership, etc. Some of it will still go back to state and federal governments in the form of taxes, but not all of it. Basically, the idea is that, if folks have more disposable income to spend (and then spend it), the private sector will do a far better job of stimulating the economy than the government will do. (WHAT? BETTER THAN THE GOVERNMENT? NO WAY! :omfg: )

But it would be a moot point if the tax system were reformed to a FairTax-like system, which does not recognize the concept of brackets.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Diogenes_in_Tokyo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:55 am

I'm glad to see the "discussion" has tempered down a bit.

In the interests of disclosure, I find myself agreeing alot with what TTT has said here. That said, I wouldn't have been too put off by Clinton either.

I have several problems with Obama
--Obama's not the one to be lecturing America on race

After Harvard Law Review, Obama moves to South Side Chicago and does community organizing, putting in roots and hoping to move up in politics in a heavily black area (I know, I used to live there). But Obama's got white relatives and he's moved around alot, so he needs urban street cred (and votes). Which he finds by conveniently joining a Black liberation theology church (it was either that or Nation of Islam, but NOI plays worse since Farrakhan'll occasionally start ranting about the Jews). Fair enough, he wanted urban - lower class black - support, which he got.
Cut to present day, when Obama lectures the country on racism, even evident in his little old white grandma, only to have the moment eclipsed by his own uncloseted skeleton as the rest of America finds out what Black LT really is (whites=oppressors, mythic ties to Africa and some idyllic state of nature, pre-whitey).
Mac mentioned America being racist, but he failed to mention that some of the racists are black. Or was their previous and growing support of Obama purely because they identify with him? That's a far stretch, since he's actually of mixed race and a highly educated upper-class lawyer.
--Nor on life in the lower class
Obama and his wife definitely aren't hurting for cash but you wouldn't know it since Michelle, pulling in a nice chunk of change from the U of C Hospital (I know, I used to work there), complained about how the Obamas had just paid off their school loans. Which is to say that Obama is far removed from the circumstances of his constituents. Or was his arugula consumption not a good indicator?
--What's more, we already know how Obama feels about the rest of America:
You go into some of these small towns in Pennsylvania, a lot of them — like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing’s replaced them. And they’ve gone through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. So it’s not surprising then that they get bitter, and they cling to guns, or religion, or antipathy toward people who aren’t like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.
--Plus Obama's record is pretty light
Everyone viewing Obama as "change" should probably take a look at his consummate skills at being a politican by sidestepping some major issues with a vote not of "for" or "against" but of "present."
--The real dealbreaker isn't necessarily Obama's politics
Obama is a bit of a lefty, but he could go more mainstream once elected. He has a talent for leaving people on both sides of a debate thinking he agrees with them. And he's shown himself to be politically adept (refer back to those "present" votes).
--The problem is the hype
"[T]he Obama campaign’s religious undertones are undeniable, and undeniably appealing"; so appealing, in fact, that supporters faint when he speaks and members of the media mention the thrill going up my leg in an unholy rush to worship at altar of Barack Obama. Which makes little sense given his scant record and tendency for platitudes. All of which has left some observers, and even those on the left and/or who support Obama, to wonder if his apparent deification is most indicative of a Cult , Evangelicalism or Political Campaign?
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by AmishChief » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:20 pm

Back in 2000, had it been an election between Gore and McCain (instead of Bush), I would have chosen McCain. That choice was based more on the fact that I was against some of Tipper Gore's actions with the Parents Music Resource Center than anything her husband did. I was also out of high school at the time with very few other concerns.

What a difference eight years makes. McCain lost any of my support when he hitched his wagon to Bush at the 2004 Republican National Convention. Before that he seemed like a Republican who would be willing to speak his mind against party line if necessary, but is that the case anymore?

Put me in Obama's court. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that having McCain as president is just a continuation of Bush. I'm in agreement with that statement. Whatever skeletons Diogenes or TTT may like to bring out, I will take those skeletons with open arms compared to the continuation of what's happening now. With a McCain presidency I see little chance that things will change drastically. That and I'm getting a little sick and tired of apologizing for being an American citizen, and the reason I have to do a lot of that apologizing is thanks to Republicans.

Special emphasis on that last sentence. I can't even count the number of foreigners (Japanese and otherwise) that have given me trouble for a president that I can't even stand to see on the television.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:28 pm

AmishChief wrote:What a difference eight years makes. McCain lost any of my support when he hitched his wagon to Bush at the 2004 Republican National Convention. Before that he seemed like a Republican who would be willing to speak his mind against party line if necessary, but is that the case anymore?
What was he supposed to do, not support his party's nomination? Or run against the incumbent for it, maybe?

During the primaries, many talking heads -- including Hannity and Coulter, the gasbags -- were adamantly against McCain getting the nomination due to his deviations from the party line in the past. They said some really hurtful things about the guy. (They've moderated their tune a bit now that the people have spoken and chosen the guy.) If the question is if that's something he's still known for, the answer is yes. Two party-breaking issues that come to mind are his pushes for campaign finance reform and his belief in man-made climate change. Ironically, the first part of that came back to bite him in the ass when it came time to raise money for his current campaign.

For the record, I was a Huckabee supporter in the primaries, but I would have been happy with just about anyone except pacifist/appeaser Paul and the John Kerry-esque Romney.

Since you're American… Did you absentee vote in the primaries? Do you intend to for the big race in November? If so, how exactly do you go about that -- do they actually mail a ballot to your home in Japan?

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Redrum » Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:31 pm

I'm avoiding this discussion like the plague. I'll only say that Diogenes in Tokyo's post is very informative (Incredible effort DIT) and sums up my feelings on the upcoming election.

The main reason I wanted to post is this. If any of you American's came here without a thought of being here when an election came up the following site is great. Just fill out the online form and they will do the rest getting you set up with an absentee ballot.

http://www.votefromabroad.org/

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:27 pm

What has me scratching my head is the fanaticism of the HRC supporters. I thought Hillary gave a solid concession speech, yet I keep seeing these insane supporters of hers vowing to vote for McCain instead of Obama. :eyes:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Stick-Swinging Incident » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:55 am

Shawn wrote:What has me scratching my head is the fanaticism of the HRC supporters. I thought Hillary gave a solid concession speech, yet I keep seeing these insane supporters of hers vowing to vote for McCain instead of Obama. :eyes:
Exactly, I mean how different were the two platforms (Clinton's and Obama's) Not much. But Clinton's and McCain's are miles apart. Those that would vote for McCain out of spite of losing to Obama have no idea what they were voting FOR.

The "I was voting for a woman president" is sexist in itself. Vote for the person that could do the best job, gender/age/race aside. But hey, we all know that isn't going to happen.

As noted before, in the commonwealth countries you vote for the party and the leader becomes the PM. (in Canada it USED to be the Queen could pick an MP and tell em... "Go form me a government, I don't like the guy you got in there now.")
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Diogenes_in_Tokyo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:48 am

Thanks for the h/t, redrum.

I must say that I'm extremely impressed: I had feared the the thread my degenerate into partisan bickering (so I was hesitant to post) but I'm glad to see my fear was completely unfounded.
Shawn wrote:What has me scratching my head is the fanaticism of the HRC supporters. I thought Hillary gave a solid concession speech, yet I keep seeing these insane supporters of hers vowing to vote for McCain instead of Obama.
But presumably you can also understand how the Clinton supporters feel. She was the party's presumptive nominee for a long time(so much so that an artist had already sculpted her presidential bust and many considered her nomination "inevitable"), but along comes the relatively unknown Obama to shellack her in the primaries. The intelligensia were clearly divided. Worse (in Clinton supporters' minds), the staunch party pillars of African Americans and wealthy liberals deserted her in droves for Obama. For the former, the quintessential example is Oprah Winfrey, who when faced with the choice between race and sex went with race, to the clear dismay of her largely female audience. And as for the latter, in sharp contrast to the more reasoned pro-Obama stance by Tom Hanks is the blatant fawning by George Lucas:
"We have a hero in the making back in the United States today because we have a new candidate for president of the United States, Barack Obama," Lucas said when asked who his childhood heroes were.
Obama, "for all of us that have dreams and hope, is a hero," Lucas said.
Point is, supporting Clinton over Obama is understandable given
1) she has less time left - she's 61, he's 47, and he has plenty of time to run later
2) she has been raked over the coals publicly, so her flaws are well known
3) she has more legislative experience
4) she's spearheaded major policy initiatives (that ultimately failed, but that's beside the point)
and certainly not least
5) as a woman, her presidency would be as historic as Obama's or more so (given the no. of blacks that held high positions in the 3 branches vs. the no. of women)

And let's be clear - while she considers herself one of the "strongest, most passionate and intelligent Democrats" at least Clinton is human and the 'fanatacism' and 'insanity' of her supporters pales to that of Obama's, who are feting him as the veritable second coming of Christ
Last edited by Diogenes_in_Tokyo on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Diogenes_in_Tokyo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:57 am

Stick-Swinging Incident wrote: Exactly, I mean how different were the two platforms (Clinton's and Obama's) Not much. But Clinton's and McCain's are miles apart. Those that would vote for McCain out of spite of losing to Obama have no idea what they were voting FOR.
Fair enough. Problem is, from several polls that I've seen Clinton had a better chance to win over McCain than Obama.
Stick-Swinging Incident wrote: The "I was voting for a woman president" is sexist in itself. Vote for the person that could do the best job, gender/age/race aside. But hey, we all know that isn't going to happen.
Since what's good for the goose is good for the gander (I couldn't help it :) ), you would also agree that "'I was voting for a black president' is racist in itself."
That's what's great about getting involved with a foreigner. You can't take it personally. What's really terrific is that when we act in ways which might objectively...seem assholish, or incredibly annoying, they don't get upset at all. They just assume it's some national characteristic. -Barcelona

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by MacGyver » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:16 am

Diogenes_in_Tokyo wrote:In the interests of disclosure, I find myself agreeing alot with what TTT has said here. That said, I wouldn't have been too put off by Clinton either.
Neither assertions surprise me considering how right of centre you are and the fact that it has been argued by many that Hillary is also more right of centre than the conservative candidate (McCain) on a number of issues.
Diogenes_in_Tokyo wrote:Nor on life in the lower class
I don't think you need to be poor to empathize with poor people. The fact of the matter is that Obama's upbringing wasn't exactly elitist. His father walked out when he was young and he also lived in Indonesia for a few years. Sure, I wouldn't argue that he lived in squalor but he and his family were hardly well-off. Furthermore, with the way the political system is structured these days, its tough for someone with limited means to run for the Oval Office. But more to the point, would you vote for a red-neck who didn't graduate high school living in a trailer park to be president of the US? (Yes, its an extreme example but fair considering you are arguing that his lack of poor status doesn't allow him to relate to poor people.)
Diogenes_in_Tokyo wrote:Plus Obama's record is pretty light
Yeah I'd agree with that. While his campaign slogan is tried and tested, and doubtful that it will be the last time that it is used in one form or another, it is savvy. It also goes to show the current climate in America. Rightly or wrongly Bush is seen as the creator of a lot of the current problems in America - although personally I think its fair to argue that Congress can share some of the blame as well - so this is a good slogan to appeal to those that disagree with the current course of American policies.
Diogenes_in_Tokyo wrote:The real dealbreaker isn't necessarily Obama's politics
Obama is a bit of a lefty, but he could go more mainstream once elected.
Being a lefty is most definitely not a bad thing and considering the state of America at the minute it most definitely would be a good thing. But you are right. Generally, those on the left become more mainstream once elected. Pity Bush failed to practice what he preached when he was elected in 2000.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:00 pm

Every party has their share of lunatics. I think whoever wins is going to have a difficult time of trying to implement their policies as they will be busy cleaning up after Bush. Winning the White House means talking ownership of a giant shit sandwich that everyone is going to have to take a bite out of. :pal:

DiT, you make some good points about HRC's experience and Obama's lack thereof, but Bush got elected. Twice. Doesn't that nullify your list and make Obama more than qualified to be the president? :)

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