And the next leader of the free world will be...

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And the next leader of the free world will be...

Obama. I am hoping it'll be Obama.
23
47%
Obama. However, I am hoping it'll be McCain.
1
2%
McCain. I am hoping it'll be McCain.
3
6%
McCain. However, I am hoping it'll be Obama.
8
16%
*Yawn*
14
29%
 
Total votes: 49

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:22 pm

The lipstick thing was obviously intentional and a bad move. He'll lose votes because of it.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Buggermeister » Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:07 pm

I think it's really cool that after 8 years of Bush, with him in the 30s in approval these last few years, the presidential race is basically tied. This is a good sign that America really knows what it's doing (and I'm saying this as an American). :bang: :bang: :bang: :puke: :puke: :puke:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by senseiman » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:18 am

Proof that the "Lipstick on a Pig" thing is BS:

John McCain used the exact same phrase a few months ago in reference to Hillary Clinton. End of story.

Next issue: Sarah Palin is an idiot.

They showed an interview with her on CNN yesterday where the interviewer asked her if she agreed with the Bush Doctrine. After making several embarrassing attempts to evade the question it became obvious that she had no idea what the Bush Doctrine was. The interviewer had to explain it to her.

They had a couple of commentators discussing the interview and the only thing the one praising her performance could say was that she knew what NATO was (the interviewer had asked her about that and she didn't embarrass herself in that answer).
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:08 am

Yeah, I thought Palin looked very weak in the interview. If she keeps demonstrating her ignorance in front of the cameras like that, she'll sink McCain (hopefully :wink: )

As for the lipstick on a pig outrage, I don't know whether I should laugh or gouge my eyes out. Have people forgotten the meaning of this expression? It is also clear that Obama wasn't taking a cheap shot at McCain or Palin, but their platform. What also amazes me is how this story won't die. The GOP must love it because it distracts people from thinking about real issues.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Buggermeister » Sat Sep 13, 2008 3:58 pm

Shawn wrote:Yeah, I thought Palin looked very weak in the interview. If she keeps demonstrating her ignorance in front of the cameras like that, she'll sink McCain (hopefully :wink: )
Hm... Real issues... No dumbass comments seemed to sink GW Bush in 2000 because he was a "guy you wanted to have a beer with", while on the other hand Al Gore wasn't good enough to be president because he was "too boring" and claimed that he had single handedly build the entire internet. The people who actually care about the issues have already chosen their political parties before even seeing the candidates, and the swing voters, who will decide the rest of our fates are f***ing morons. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by NovaInteracGeosGabaAeon » Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:25 pm

I vote for Obama but the campaign is not any longer about Obama v. McCain. Its all about Biden v. Palin now.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:20 pm

PanicInducingGaijin wrote:Does no one know what the phrase "lipstick on a pig" means? What's really sad for me, as an American, is that the people who don't know combined with the people who DO know but will pretend not to in order to ratchet up the phony outrage and "score points" against a political opponent apparently add up to a majority.
Again, I will agree with these points. It's all just a dumb situation. Hearing the clip of his speech, it's clear Obama was talking about McCain's policies, not his veep. It's like that time that guy got hounded out of office for using the word "niggardly."
And it makes me sick to see people being interviewed on the news saying that they'd be happy to see a "regular hockey mom" a heartbeart away (and that's an especially precarious heartbeat given that McCain is both old and a cancer survivor) from the presidency.
…However, I don't understand why McCain's mortality is such a cause of concern for the left. It reeks an awful lot of an argument made when one's run out of substantiative issues to debate.

senseiman wrote:Next issue: Sarah Palin is an idiot.

They showed an interview with her on CNN yesterday where the interviewer asked her if she agreed with the Bush Doctrine. After making several embarrassing attempts to evade the question it became obvious that she had no idea what the Bush Doctrine was. The interviewer had to explain it to her.
…And on a similar note, what does it say when the best argument the Dems can make out of that interview is that she forgot the meaning of a phrase the press invented and then stopped using about half a decade ago?

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:17 pm

PanicInducingGaijin wrote:
Does no one know what the phrase "lipstick on a pig" means? What's really sad for me, as an American, is that the people who don't know combined with the people who DO know but will pretend not to in order to ratchet up the phony outrage and "score points" against a political opponent apparently add up to a majority.
I can understand your exasperation. However, the only accidents that occur in politican speeches are when the politicians leave the script. Those speeches are gone over with a fine tooth comb to weigh the effects of all expressions used, particularly the more idiomatic ones, in the current context. No question that a side dig at Ms Palin was being taken here, and that Mr Obama would have OKed it when he checked over the speech because they had plenty of cover if it became an issue.

However, the dig played into the Republican's hands because they are currently in a strategy of appropriating some of the liberal ground. It was easy, although very hypocritical, for them to accuse the Democrats of being politically incorrect towards their candidate. A nice twist on 'We're about change too' theme.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by senseiman » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:43 am

Tall Tall Tree wrote: …And on a similar note, what does it say when the best argument the Dems can make out of that interview is that she forgot the meaning of a phrase the press invented and then stopped using about half a decade ago?
Regardless of who coined the phrase "Bush Doctrine" it is still common knowledge among everyone with even a passing knowledge of international affairs what it means. This isn't some obscure piece of trivia that you might not expect a candidate to know (like the name of the President of Taiwan or something), this is the fundamental basis of her own party's approach to the war on terror and foreign policy. It is just insane that she wouldn't know what it meant.

What it says about the Democrats is that they know a good argument when they see it. Palin is completely ignorant of foreign policy and that is a completely legitimate point for the democrats to be making. If there were bigger miscues and points for the democrats to have pounced upon I'd be interested to know what they were (I didn't see the full interview). Certainly if she doesn't even know what the Bush Doctrine is then there is probably a ton of other things she is ignorant of as well.

I seem to recall the best argument you could make in her favor earlier was that she came from a state that was near to two foreign countries (Russia and Canada) and that somehow made her qualified in this area.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:29 am

Even Bush doesn't know what the Bush doctrine is, except in the most general of terms: 'We're going to do whatever the hell we like, and don't expect us to apologise for it'. Sarah Palin's main problem was surely that she didn't want to name it for what it was, because that would require her to take a critical stance, which she would rather avoid. She needs to learn how to blather. After she learns that, she'll be as good as the rest of them.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:22 pm

What are your reactions to the first presidential debate? The polls gave it to Obama, and I agree. My overall impression is that Obama looked and spoke like a man ready to be the next president. He was knowledgeable and collected in making his points. Obama, however, really needs to stop saying he agrees with McCain and needs to pound McCain. I thought Obama had several opportunities to take McCain to task but let them go.

McCain scares me. The theme of his replies was WAR, WAR, WAR. This is a field he loved to talk about it and even tossed in the fact he was a POW at the end of the debate. McCain appeared contemptuous of Obama when talking about military matters, repeatedly telling Obama he didn't understand. It's also telling that he never made eye contact with Obama. What bothered me about McCain was the way he spoke about other countries that suggests his style of diplomacy will be "Fuck you, do it my way." He sees the KGB in Putin, called Pakistan a failed state, and doesn't seem interested in a dialog with Iran.

Obama looked and sounded like he's ready for the White House while McCain offered nothing to convince me that he should be president.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:42 pm

I agree that Obama looked better overall, but I am not a McCain supporter to begin with. From some perspectives he would have scored more points.

Both candidates are hamstrung on economic matters. Firstly, neither of them really knows what to do, and secondly, if they take a strong rhetorical stand, as McCain attempted to do, they can immediately be accused of inserting presidential politics into the crisis. No doubt the Republicans will end up signing off on the bailout after first having gone on record as being against it, and then blame the Democrats for any problems that come afterwards.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Stick-Swinging Incident » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:51 am

I don't know if this is going to anger some of McCain's supporters or garner new ones, but this miniscule thing might be worthy of the press blowing it up to a 10 day story.

McCain, while wearing a red and white striped tie and a blue shirt, did NOT, I repeat NOT wear an american flag pin. (if he did wear one, my TV sure as heck didn't pick it out, though I could see Mr. Obama's pin)
This makes him the first male politician from America to do this on TV. (That I have seen, or not seen, as the case may be.)

Okay its tongue in cheek, I couldn't give a rats ass if he wears one or not, but its JUST the kind of story that someone will jump on and RUN with, because it helps fire up feelings as opposed to THINKING about the issues. I have no doubt that Mr. McCain is as patriotic as they come, he does NOT need to wear the flag on his lapel to show that. The absence of this 1 dollar pin, if it gets blown out of proportion as the media is wont to do, will just distract from the issues.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by senseiman » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:38 am

I thought Obama did better, though I also want him to win so that may be clouding my judgment too!

Obama was pretty cool and focused throughout and I agree that he came across as someone completely ready to take over the office of President.

The only reason I think that was an issue was because McCain kept making it one by harping on about how much experience he has and being fairly dismissive of Obama's experience and knowledge. Like when he said Obama didn't understand the difference between tactics and strategy and then Obama comes back with an answer that made it look like he knew more about what he was talking about than McCain did.

McCain's strategy (treating Obama like a naive youngster) would only have worked if he was dealing with someone who didn't know what he was talking about. But Obama looked like the more intelligent and well-spoken of the two (not saying that he is the more intelligent, just that he looked it). Maybe if McCain had been debating his moronic VP running mate it would have gone well.....

At the same time though it certainly isn't like Obama blew McCain out of the water. Both did well, but Obama clearly did better.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Level3 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:46 am

I hate these politics threads. I know, that as a Republican in Japan, basically everyone else in eikaiwa land will chastise me, ignore me, insult me and/or hate me; just because they THINK they know what I think and why I think it [I assume they think all Republicans are Bible-thumping morons who are greedy and hope poor people die, because they are lazy.. is that about right?] Shit, why am I even bothering typing this.

It's so funny how everyone says "my guy did better" in the debate.
Polls on right leaning sites show a win for McCain.
Polls on left wing sites (and I count any collection of gaijin in Japan as left wing, that's just the statistics) say Obama won.
But both sides usually agree that neither of them kicked ass.

I will say that it is kinda sad that for a lot of people, style is more important than substance, details, facts, or most importantly, thinking about consequences of good intentions.
I think Republicans are at a disadvantage in TV debates, since we don't want to give everyone everything and every
government program they want wiht no regard for cost except just saying "We'll just tax the rich more, they'll pay for it."

Saying "I'll increase funding for college loans to everyone." is easy to say.
Explaining that, in doing so, by making money no object to people seeking higher education, you also make
it very easy for colleges to increase tuition at 2 to 3 times the inflation rate, such that now, only someone as rich
ass George Bush or Barack Obama can afford to go to Harvard without basically signing up for a lifetime of student loan payments.
Nor accounting for the fact that some colleges have endowments in the tens of billions of dollars..such that they could basically afford to not charge tuition anymore, thanks to alumni donations and smart investments, yet they do still have tuition rates which cause crippling debts to those responsible and thrifty enough to not default on the loan.
Meanwhile enforcing the meme that a college education is the only requirement to success in life, without the qualifier that choosing a major or at least courses within the major, or internships, or summer jobs, or SOMETHING that yield marketable job skills, you get young people who THINK they will have tons of opportunites for good careers, so they buy homes beyond their means, and then end up working as a cashier at Borders because that B.A. in Art History just isn't landing any job interviews since they lost their good job at the museum, and their blogs didn't make them rich off Google ads. Then, the mortgage payments are too much to handle, and WHAM...you end up where we are today. A crisis mainly caused by the credit card culture gone to a new level of excess, buying homes they can't actually afford, and the banks and government regulators handed them the shovels to dig their own graves. And if you bail them all out, you send a big message to everyone that there are no consequences if you live beyond your means [while increasing taxes on, thus punishing, the responsible people who ARE living within their means]

But that takes more than 30 seconds of TV time. And humanities majors tend to get pissy when you say such stuff, which sucks, because some of them managed to find work in journalism, thus yielding a profession that is 90% Democrat in the USA. Thus all the magazine covers with Obama-as-Christ motif.

Back to the main point.

It's the people who, after that debate, are saying "My dude kicked ass!!!" who are showing their blind loyalty to their guy. On both sides.

I favor McCain, but I am impressed with Obama saying he wants to invade Pakistan.

You guys are mostly left-wingers, so can you clue me in, which of Obama's views are his REAL views,
and which are just views being said to try to persuade me and independent voters, but you all say amongst yourselves,
"Don't worry, he's just saying that to get elected. He won't really DO that." [i.e. The desire to start attacking Pakistan.]
I want to make an informed choice, it's just really hard to figure out what Obama's platform actually is week by week.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by senseiman » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:53 am

Level3 wrote:I hate these politics threads. I know, that as a Republican in Japan, basically everyone else in eikaiwa land will chastise me, ignore me, insult me and/or hate me; just because they THINK they know what I think and why I think it [I assume they think all Republicans are Bible-thumping morons who are greedy and hope poor people die, because they are lazy.. is that about right?] Shit, why am I even bothering typing this.
I don't know how accurate that is. Without wishing to speak for them, just off the top of my head I know that TTT and DiT who post here have defended Republican policies and seem to identify with the right end of the American political spectrum.

Of course you also have to bear in mind that probably half (maybe more) of Eikaiwa teachers come from other English-speaking countries where George Bush and the Republican party is almost universally despised (whether they are Eikaiwa teachers or not), so that probably tilts the scales. Note that in those countries being opposed to George Bush (and McCain) is not the same as being "left wing", a lot of conservatives in Canada for example would definitely prefer to see a Democrat in the White House.
I think Republicans are at a disadvantage in TV debates, since we don't want to give everyone everything and every
government program they want wiht no regard for cost except just saying "We'll just tax the rich more, they'll pay for it."
And the Republicans don't do the same? I mean saying "We'll cut your taxes and eliminate all this nasty government waste" is pretty much the same kind of pandering that would play well on a TV debate is it not?
I favor McCain, but I am impressed with Obama saying he wants to invade Pakistan.
Don't recall him saying that he wanted to invade Pakistan.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:25 am

Stick-Swinging Incident wrote:McCain, while wearing a red and white striped tie and a blue shirt, did NOT, I repeat NOT wear an american flag pin. (if he did wear one, my TV sure as heck didn't pick it out, though I could see Mr. Obama's pin)
This makes him the first male politician from America to do this on TV. (That I have seen, or not seen, as the case may be.)
Earlier in the election, Obama stopped wearing the pin for a while, and he got chastised for it. And I'm sure some other less prominent politician did it well before hom. I agree that it's all just a dumb, moot point, though. You don't need to be constantly wearing your patriotism on your sleeve - or your lapel, as the case may be.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Wage Slave » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:58 am

Level3 wrote: Then, the mortgage payments are too much to handle, and WHAM...you end up where we are today. A crisis mainly caused by the credit card culture gone to a new level of excess, buying homes they can't actually afford, and the banks and government regulators handed them the shovels to dig their own graves. And if you bail them all out, you send a big message to everyone that there are no consequences if you live beyond your means [while increasing taxes on, thus punishing, the responsible people who ARE living within their means]
Erm. Wasn't it the Republicans in charge while this situation was created?
I favor McCain, but I am impressed with Obama saying he wants to invade Pakistan.
I assume you mean this from August 2007. He didn't say he favoured invading Pakistan in the sense of regime change and occupation. He said he was prepared to launch raids inside Pakistan's territory. This is now happening in any case, in response to demands from the US military.

You though, seem very keen to invade Pakistan and presumably Iran and anyone else that is perceived as a threat to US interests and power. Given the obscene amount of money that Iraq and the bail out of the financial system is costing are you sure the US can actually afford it. Even if you think the money is available, are you sure you have the manpower? Don't count on too much help from other countries because I doubt it will come.
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by AmishChief » Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:06 pm

Level3 wrote:I hate these politics threads. I know, that as a Republican in Japan, basically everyone else in eikaiwa land will chastise me, ignore me, insult me and/or hate me; just because they THINK they know what I think and why I think it [I assume they think all Republicans are Bible-thumping morons who are greedy and hope poor people die, because they are lazy.. is that about right?] Shit, why am I even bothering typing this.

It's so funny how everyone says "my guy did better" in the debate.
Polls on right leaning sites show a win for McCain.
Polls on left wing sites (and I count any collection of gaijin in Japan as left wing, that's just the statistics) say Obama won.
But both sides usually agree that neither of them kicked ass.
While I can sympathize being outnumbered by crowds of people shouting down your own views, statements like "I count any collection of gaijin in Japan as left wing, that's just the statistics." are a bit far fetched. Just what statistics are those, actually? And by dismissing those people and sites as "left wing" it's as bad as the first accusation you mention.

As far as Amercian ex-pat populations go, I'd think those that come to Japan are far more conservative than those living in other countries. The few Republicans I've met in Japan have generally kept their mouths shut because of what you talk about, but to paint every one else as "left wing"....that's the pot calling the kettle black.
Saying "I'll increase funding for college loans to everyone." is easy to say.
Explaining that, in doing so, by making money no object to people seeking higher education, you also make
it very easy for colleges to increase tuition at 2 to 3 times the inflation rate, such that now, only someone as rich
ass George Bush or Barack Obama can afford to go to Harvard without basically signing up for a lifetime of student loan payments.
Nor accounting for the fact that some colleges have endowments in the tens of billions of dollars..such that they could basically afford to not charge tuition anymore, thanks to alumni donations and smart investments, yet they do still have tuition rates which cause crippling debts to those responsible and thrifty enough to not default on the loan.
Meanwhile enforcing the meme that a college education is the only requirement to success in life, without the qualifier that choosing a major or at least courses within the major, or internships, or summer jobs, or SOMETHING that yield marketable job skills, you get young people who THINK they will have tons of opportunites for good careers, so they buy homes beyond their means, and then end up working as a cashier at Borders because that B.A. in Art History just isn't landing any job interviews since they lost their good job at the museum, and their blogs didn't make them rich off Google ads. Then, the mortgage payments are too much to handle, and WHAM...you end up where we are today. A crisis mainly caused by the credit card culture gone to a new level of excess, buying homes they can't actually afford, and the banks and government regulators handed them the shovels to dig their own graves. And if you bail them all out, you send a big message to everyone that there are no consequences if you live beyond your means [while increasing taxes on, thus punishing, the responsible people who ARE living within their means]
I'm in agreement with you here, and I've seen so many students who have been slapped with incredibly large loans, not to mention some who multiply that debt with credit cards that make the situation even worse. I have an undergrad student loan debt myself, and coming to Japan was partly motivated because the jobs here have helped me pay off student loans more quickly, and far more quickly than I would have working in the States. Not to mention gaining other marketable job skills (Japanese language, etc.)
But that takes more than 30 seconds of TV time. And humanities majors tend to get pissy when you say such stuff, which sucks, because some of them managed to find work in journalism, thus yielding a profession that is 90% Democrat in the USA. Thus all the magazine covers with Obama-as-Christ motif.
At the risk of feeding into the "liberal bias" meme, I was a journalism major and indeed worked as a reporter before coming to Japan. For a political news service, no less. I won't bother trying to say that the bias doesn't exist because convincing Republicans of that is impossible. What I can say is that many reporters are very fiscally conservative because starting salaries are low enough that they don't have much money to work with in the first place. With my student loans, the starting salary was so low that taking a chance to do something different at a young age (e.g. Japan) was worth the sacrifice. I'm still glad I did so.

The people who are writing the "magazine covers" you talk about are in a point in their careers where they are beyond survival, and as such aren't necessarily keen on keeping up with the Obama-as-Christ motif. Beginners in the field aren't even close to that kind of status.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:29 am

Level3 wrote:You guys are mostly left-wingers, so can you clue me in, which of Obama's views are his REAL views,
and which are just views being said to try to persuade me and independent voters, but you all say amongst yourselves,
"Don't worry, he's just saying that to get elected. He won't really DO that." [i.e. The desire to start attacking Pakistan.]
I want to make an informed choice, it's just really hard to figure out what Obama's platform actually is week by week.
I can't vote in the election, but Obama seems like the better choice for the job. I am under no delusions, however, that he is some kind of saint. On substance, he's not that different than McCain, particularly when it comes to foreign policy. McCain's baby is Iraq, but Obama clearly intends to escalate the war in Afghanistan. Both are equally hawkish when it comes to Iran and Russia. How they both deal with the economy may be the key that wins them the election.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:50 pm

Just out of interest, Level 3, as a staunch republican are you for or against the bailout? As you may have noticed, I have left wing views, and I'm against it. So maybe we have something in common.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:26 pm

Against it! All commercial bail-outs by the government are a tragedy against free-market principles. The banks fucked up; let them fail.

We can choose a short-term election-year Band-Aid solution and suffer later when the same idiots make the same mistakes, or we can fight through a few down months now and come out stronger later. I'll take the latter, please.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:31 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:Against it! All commercial bail-outs by the government are a tragedy against free-market principles. The banks fucked up; let them fail.

We can choose a short-term election-year Band-Aid solution and suffer later when the same idiots make the same mistakes, or we can fight through a few down months now and come out stronger later. I'll take the latter, please.
Well, of course, I do look at this from a different angle. Why buy up all the bad money of a bank, when you can simply buy the bank? The idea that these people are going to be issuing lots of credit to an economy that is going down the tubes when they can put their free money into commodities and watch the prices rise doesn't make sense to me.

As to the magic of the markets, ' a few down months' is optimistic to say the least. For those who lost their pensions or homes it would be more like a few down decades. I'm sure the market as a whole would prefer finanacial intermediaries to be rewarded on the basis of the long term values they produce for the clients who underwrite their activities as oppossed to the somewhat ethereal short term values they produce for their bosses. However, what the market wants and what they get is two different things. This whole fiasco, which people have been predicting for several years now, illustrates the folly of entrusting the financial system into a few private hands.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Tall Tall Tree » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:05 pm

jon wrote:For those who lost their pensions or homes it would be more like a few down decades.
Who lost their pensions? People who had it all solely invested in the market? The market will be back.

And those who lost their homes technically never had them to begin with.

Remember, investment is a gamble. If someone goes to Vegas and loses their life savings on the roulette table, we don't expect the government to replace it for them, do we?

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:21 pm

This blows my mind. The first $700 billion bailout plan gets voted down by the House, but a $700 billion bailout plan with a $150 billion package of tax breaks gets passed in the Senate. WTF just happened? In order to pass, the bailout had to cost more money? :huh: I'm beginning to think that no matter what the US does, it's going to experience its own Lost Decade just like Japan. :chug:

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:04 pm

Tall Tall Tree wrote:
jon wrote:For those who lost their pensions or homes it would be more like a few down decades.
Who lost their pensions? People who had it all solely invested in the market? The market will be back.

And those who lost their homes technically never had them to begin with.

Remember, investment is a gamble. If someone goes to Vegas and loses their life savings on the roulette table, we don't expect the government to replace it for them, do we?
I was referring to people who would lose their pensions, houses and also businesses if one simply let the banks fail and be replaced with whatever 'the market' decided next, as you proposed. I agree that the stock market equates to a casino, except that when the house loses, so do you - regardless of whether you invested personal money there or not. The so called free choice of the market is actually no choice.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Stick-Swinging Incident » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:17 pm

I'm with you Shawn, however I am confused as to who wanted the extra add ons to the bill

Was it the Dems or the Reps that wanted the personal FGICs raised from 100 000 to 250 000?

If it was the Reps, aren't they for LESS government interferance and free market economy... meaning, stay way from guarenteeing loans AND savings. (which are basically just loans TO the bank anyways.) But McCain said in an interview that this level SHOULD be raised. My question is ... Why... just open 2 accounts at 100 000 each, or 3 or 4 or better yet, DO something with your money instead of putting it in a savings account, BUY property. Anyways...

This sure doesn't help the little man, as the little man doesn't have over 100 000 just lying around in a savings account. If someone does, they aren't, by definition little... they are in fact pretty well heeled if they have a bank account that large.
And its not helping the people whose houses are up on the block, so who actually gains by this little add on?

The other ones, the cap on the golden parachute, yeah thats a no brainer. The heads of the groups that were in control of this little fiasco get these nice bonuses to retire... er... no... perhaps their golden parachute should be no jail time... presidential pardon from any prosecution in this matter.
Tax breaks, yeah it might help a few people who are scraping by and help them NOT lose their homes. But as TTT said, the people were living beyond their means in a house they couldn't afford, and should have KNOWN they couldn't afford it, along with the banks who SHOULD have denied them a morgage because it was just too risky.

Anyway, I would appriciate it if someone could tell me why these add ons help the situation, or are they just pork barrel projects to bribe the politicians for votes?
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Wage Slave » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:50 pm

Shawn wrote: This blows my mind. The first $700 billion bailout plan gets voted down by the House, but a $700 billion bailout plan with a $150 billion package of tax breaks gets passed in the Senate. WTF just happened? In order to pass, the bailout had to cost more money? :huh:
It certainly smacks of the same fantasyland approach to economic policy which created the whole mess in the first place. The air of sheer panic and the impotence of Mr Bush doesn't exactly inspire confidence either. I know he is in his lame duck dotage but I can't remember any other president looking and acting more like a sock puppet than he is now.
Shawn wrote:
I'm beginning to think that no matter what the US does, it's going to experience its own Lost Decade just like Japan. :chug:
What an interesting thought! In a profound way its hard to imagine - This is after all the country which still has the capacity to produce another Microsoft or Google. And yet, Japan had galaxy of brilliant manufacturing companies, the highest savings rate in the world, excellent education as far as producing skilled workers goes and enviable social cohesion. Somewhat stunningly it was all undone by incompetent banking and leadership. I wonder ......
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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by Shawn » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:31 am

Stick-Swinging Incident wrote:Was it the Dems or the Reps that wanted the personal FGICs raised from 100 000 to 250 000?
Both, I think. Both Obama and MCCain suggested this was a good idea. The purpose of this move is to show that the banks are stable and to prevent a run on them by a panicked public.

As you say, it doesn't help the little guy, but from what I've read, a lot of knowledgeable economists are saying this deal should be passed. The problem is that the public doesn't seem to agree. I wonder if we could have a little tax revolt in the making?

The tax breaks tacked into the plan are being perversely called "sweeteners." That should tell you that both the Dems and Repubs needed a few extras thrown in to make the plan more palatable for them.

Wage Slave: I agree, Bush is entirely powerless here. What he says has no effect. Although he's still technically in power and McCain is the leader of the GOP, neither of them appear to have any sway in this issue. I think that goes for Obama, too.

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Re: And the next leader of the free world will be...

Unread post by jon » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:52 pm

I definitely agree with the lost decade scenario. Unfortunately, the consequences for Japan will also not be good. If the Yanks aren't buying, the Japanese are going to be hard pressed export-wise. I heard that the big car manufacturers are already cutting back on production for America, and meanwhile the oil prices put an inflationary pressure on the prices of essentials at home. One good point is that Japan's banks now have some experience of financial crisis situations.

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