Give me a cricket tidbit!

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RalphWiggum
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by RalphWiggum » Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:33 pm

wilde_oscar wrote:Graceful in victory I see.
No, absolutely not. As I said, I was a teenager in the 1990s and had to endure years of Australian gloating. Boot's on the other foot now.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:53 am

RalphWiggum wrote:
wilde_oscar wrote:Graceful in victory I see.
No, absolutely not. As I said, I was a teenager in the 1990s and had to endure years of Australian gloating. Boot's on the other foot now.
Makes it sound all a bit personal. Did Boof, Tubbs, Junior, Pigeon, AB, Haydos, Warnie or any of the other guys make a point of dropping by Wiggumton and mocking you whenever they flogged England?

Anyway, a decent performace with the willow (for a change) by Pinky and another failure for the skipper. Has the potential to be a decent game.

In other news, how about Monty's new tactic for dealing with bouncers?
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by angryboy » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:02 am

wilde_oscar wrote: Has the potential to be a decent game.
What`s that saying about potential?

During the last test when Aus. were looking good I heard a criticism on the radio that I agreed with.
It was that although England are a good team they are not a great team because they were playing
like they were going for a draw having retained the Ashes.Unlike Aus. in the 90`s and early 2000`s
who would never let up and demolish them to the end.
Maybe true,maybe not, but why would England bust their arses when they must know Aus. will
surely collapse and fuck it all up?
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by RalphWiggum » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:49 am

wilde_oscar wrote:
RalphWiggum wrote:
wilde_oscar wrote:Graceful in victory I see.
No, absolutely not. As I said, I was a teenager in the 1990s and had to endure years of Australian gloating. Boot's on the other foot now.
Makes it sound all a bit personal. Did Boof, Tubbs, Junior, Pigeon, AB, Haydos, Warnie or any of the other guys make a point of dropping by Wiggumton and mocking you whenever they flogged England?

Anyway, a decent performace with the willow (for a change) by Pinky and another failure for the skipper. Has the potential to be a decent game.

In other news, how about Monty's new tactic for dealing with bouncers?
Personal? Not really, but when you're in your formative years in your favourite sport (I played a LOT of cricket as a teenager - racked up 8 competitive games in a week once!) and your national team gets consistently destroyed by their nemesis, and every Australian you meet or see on the telly loves to stick the boot in it's nice to see how it feels the other way around. As ever, I'm enjoying MacGyver's conspicuous absence. He'll be back as soon as they win. Typical Aussie... :rotfl:

As for Monty pissing on bouncers... :huh:
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by MacGyver » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:57 am

RalphWiggum wrote:As ever, I'm enjoying MacGyver's conspicuous absence. He'll be back as soon as they win. Typical Aussie... :rotfl:
Couldn't be further from the truth. I just don't think poms know what they are talking about so have stopped engaging them in conversation cause I know it's going to be mostly a lot of bull. :wink: I mean really, this pommy team isn't very good yet you poms keep crapping on about how good you are. Unfortunately Aussie cricket (for various reasons of which I know you wouldn't be aware of) is in a decline at the minute and if those areas aren't fixed, then we may never be much better. Our bowling stocks are good, and as evidenced in this series far superior to the poms*, but if our batsmen continue to bat like they don't give a toss, then it will be a long road out of these depths. (*You could argue your spinners are better but as I've said before, Graeme Swann is overrated and the issue is, which baffles me, that we can't play spin, any spin. But having said that other than Swann there's not much in Country cricket yet there a few Aussie spinners coming through that may be good in a few years. Hell, if they just gave Lyon a long crack, he may settle.)

Although to be fair, not all poms are full of shit, but many are, including journos, who should know better. I've been watching the Sky feed (through Willow TV) and early on the pommy commentating was cheer leading, which really pissed me off, but after the first test, they calmed down and now I quite enjoy it, even beefy. I think they realised that the poms aren't actually that good. Now if only George Dobell could be convinced of this fact.... Also worth noting that I feel vindicated what I have been saying about the (lack of) depth in English cricket, even though many pommy journos, Dobell included, reckon the English game is very strong. Well, if the two new blokes are the best that are on the fringes (they are, although some would say Onions should have been given a game) then pommy cricket is in a bit of trouble in a few years when Anderson, Swan, and Cook retire....
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by Wage Slave » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:51 pm

Well I'll give Ian Chappell one thing. - he's not a ridiculous hypocrite. There's an interview with him going to air right now in which he takes the Aussie coach Darren Lehmann to task for his ridiculous comments about Stuart Broad. We all now await with bated breath to see if Australian batsmen walk when they know they have snicked the ball.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 63943.html
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by Wage Slave » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:10 pm

And that's a disappointing end to the final test in spite of Australia's generosity. A draw was the most just result but since Australia had laudably decided to put on a show for us all, it was appalling that stupid ICC rules meant the game couldn't finish. If you want to promote the game of cricket, you just can't deprive people of a great finish like that. Really stupid.

So, more thought needed on that plus on DRS especially how many reviews a side can have, or perhaps allowing the onfield umpire to ask for assistance when he isn't really sure about a decision.

Australia are an improving side and deserve credit for sticking to their task. England are still a better side but the gap has narrowed considerably. Really looking forward to the series in Australia.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:03 pm

RalphWiggum wrote: Typical Aussie... :rotfl:
:pee: on the bouncers, :pee: on the pitch - typical poms. :rotfl: :puke:

Maybe they’re hoping to start and start in a UK Men of Micturition calendar?

Anyway, after rain and negative play from the English batsmen I had given up on staying up to watch the fifth test. Sounds like what could have been an exercise in tedium was turned into a game. Of course the crowd showed their appreciation by booing at the end. Curiously, if England was a little more inclined to play for something other than a draw from early on in the match a decision may have been reached.

That said, England were a better team by about 1.3 batsmen. Bell, the Sherminator of all people, stood head and shoulders above everyone else but a scoreline of 3-0 is probably not indicative of the overall difference in quality between the two teams.

For the next series, Harris and Siddle are both automatic selections as should be Lyons. Haddin played very well all series. A fit Pattinson would probably get the nod ahead of Starc, but there may be room for both, especially somewhere like Perth.

As ever, it's the top of the order where questions should be asked. Rogers seems to have cemented one slot while Maybe Warner will take the other. Has Pinky nailed down number three? Other than that, it's Clarke (assuming his gimp back is up to it) and perhaps/probably Smith. Hughes and Kawaja have had their chances and not done too much with them. Maybe Agar will get picked for his batting? Probably not, more likely Faulkner picked in part, so they say, for his being ‘tough’.

England's top three didn't look that great (note that in the last Ashes Cook averaged 127, this time around he averaged 27) The middle order is quite strong and looks to stay that way while Woakes and Kerrigan as the 'next off the shelf' makes one wonder how much depth there is to England's attack after the auto picks of Swan, Anderson and Broad. That said, a fit Tremlet or Bresnan are still top-class bowlers. Prior didn’t get to 50 with the bat and didn’t have a blinder with the gloves. Not sure about the understudy situation for his position.

One major difference is in captaincy and style of play. Clarke is a bit more aggressive and a lot more imaginative than Cook. Clark will risk a loss for a win while Cook seems to be much more risk adverse. Not bad when you’re on top, but if it starts to go wrong then bold leadership may be a bit alien to him. Crucially, Cook seems to be luckier (remember the Roman Dictator Sulla’s maxim of ‘give me lucky generals, not good ones’) winning more tosses and getting the weather he needed when he needed it.

In any event, one season is done and another is not too far away. Both sides have some major holes to deal with and assuming injury doesn’t take any of the key players out of contention before the series the return leg (as a decent hour thank goodness) should be pretty interesting.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by RalphWiggum » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:34 pm

Wage Slave wrote:in spite of Australia's generosity.
I keep hearing this and I just don't buy it. Clarke wouldn't have declared and put England back in if he didn't think Australia had a fair chance of turning England over and salvaging something from the series to bolster his side going into the winter Ashes. He was "generous" in going for the win? I don't think so.

The end of the game was a travesty. I know the umpires have hard and fast rules to follow, but if a result if forfeited for the sake of 24 balls when the batting side is happy to play on there's something wrong with those rules.

Can't wait for the next series though. Hopefully we can find some form with the bat which we've missed badly this summer. If that happens I think the narrowing gap will seem a fair bit wider again.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by Wage Slave » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:06 pm

RalphWiggum wrote:
Wage Slave wrote:in spite of Australia's generosity.
I keep hearing this and I just don't buy it. Clarke wouldn't have declared and put England back in if he didn't think Australia had a fair chance of turning England over and salvaging something from the series to bolster his side going into the winter Ashes. He was "generous" in going for the win?
It was a very poor bet in my opinion - especially after Australia had failed to pile on runs quickly enough. I think the rationale was more that he didn't have a lot to lose and there was a slim, very slim chance of snatching a victory. Even if the worst had happened and they had lost you might as well go down 4 nil as 3 nil really.

If Australia had been one up or even level he never would have gone for it. Especially in view of the fact that this team is not really all that strong. In the old days they were that good and so could pull an exceptional performance out of the hat - not these days. I think you need to take this talk of we will risk losing to win with a pinch of salt. It all depends on the situation. They did this time but they aren't stupid either.

England did not play negatively - they played intelligently - you have to play the odds in any game. Due to a poor bowling performance and a pretty dead pitch Australia had racked up 500 runs in their first innings. Winning from there is a pretty remote possibility if the other sides bowls well which Australia pretty much did. In a situation like that you do not start trying to get 500 yourself in a day and a half. You play carefully and make sure you don't lose wickets. It was good to see that England had the discipline and application to grind it out.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by BergKatse » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:57 pm

I guffawed at this.

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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:57 am

Wage Slave wrote:
RalphWiggum wrote:
Wage Slave wrote:in spite of Australia's generosity.
I keep hearing this and I just don't buy it. Clarke wouldn't have declared and put England back in if he didn't think Australia had a fair chance of turning England over and salvaging something from the series to bolster his side going into the winter Ashes. He was "generous" in going for the win?
It was a very poor bet in my opinion - especially after Australia had failed to pile on runs quickly enough. I think the rationale was more that he didn't have a lot to lose and there was a slim, very slim chance of snatching a victory. Even if the worst had happened and they had lost you might as well go down 4 nil as 3 nil really.
That was a pretty good example of positive play, being willing to risk a loss while attempting to win rather than settling for a draw, despite the odds being against him. Too bad the crowd didn't appreciate it, as graceless as the players they support.

Cook, by contrast, seems to be all about risk minimisation (ask your boy, Kerrigan how his second spell worked out for him). Not bad when you're winning but this lack of imagination may come back to bite him in years to come - especially once the cadre of this England team retire.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by RalphWiggum » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:02 am

wilde_oscar wrote:
That was a pretty good example of positive play, being willing to risk a loss while attempting to win rather than settling for a draw, despite the odds being against him. Too bad the crowd didn't appreciate it, as graceless as the players they support.
I think a desperate effort to avoid becoming the captain of the worst performing Australian Ashes team in 25 years probably drove his decision, rather than a desire for positive play. Good to see that worked out for him. With regards to a lack of grace, David Warner. I rest my case.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by Wage Slave » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:18 pm

Exactly - It's kidology really. It's easy to gamble that you might lose when you have nothing much to lose. I will believe this talk about positive play being part of Australian cricket culture when I see them gamble on a not brilliant team like this in a situation where there is a significant stake to actually lose. And fair enough - they aren't stupid and they aren't going to take on stupid gambles.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:15 am

RalphWiggum wrote:
wilde_oscar wrote:
That was a pretty good example of positive play, being willing to risk a loss while attempting to win rather than settling for a draw, despite the odds being against him. Too bad the crowd didn't appreciate it, as graceless as the players they support.
I think a desperate effort to avoid becoming the captain of the worst performing Australian Ashes team in 25 years probably drove his decision, rather than a desire for positive play. Good to see that worked out for him. With regards to a lack of grace, David Warner. I rest my case.
Wage Slave wrote:Exactly - It's kidology really. It's easy to gamble that you might lose when you have nothing much to lose. I will believe this talk about positive play being part of Australian cricket culture when I see them gamble on a not brilliant team like this in a situation where there is a significant stake to actually lose. And fair enough - they aren't stupid and they aren't going to take on stupid gambles.
Again I disagree. Clarke did have a lot to lose. He is already leading one of the worst Australian teams in living memory and risking another loss on his watch (as the yanks seem to like to say) means there is something quite significant at stake.

Not sure that citing 'Warner' makes an effective case at all, Ralph. An ineffective blow if a pub scuffle would not have been news in days of yore, other than him being lampooned for the not landing an telling blow.

Let's leave aside the poor behaviour of 20,000+ drunken yobbos when one captain’s enterprise gave them an interesting endgame to enjoy - after Cook 's crew slowed the over rate consistently and batted-to-bore for over a day - not saying they can't do this but as a spectator this would be a pretty disappointing way to spend a day and GBP80+.

How about the following equation for a real test of grace: England win + beer + time = :pee: on the pitch.

In brighter news the Australian men have their first win in anything in 20 days. Not hugely significant, especially considering each T20 side have only 2-3 test players but good to see just the same.

Did anyone watch it?
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by MacGyver » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:26 pm

Re Clarke's decision to declare and make a game of it. If you are surprised by this, you haven't been paying attention. He'll always go for the win first and foremost, even if it means he may lose in the end. Very different mindset to Cook, whose mindset actually reminds me of Dhoni and previous Indian skippers. His first instinct is to not lose rather than win.

I was disappointed though, but not surprised, by the reaction of some of the pommy press. They mentioned Clarke's decision in passing and then heaped praise on their boys. I think it should have been the other way around. Actually I must say I've become increasingly disillusioned by the biased commentary these days. I grew up with Richie Benaud, Tony Greig, Ian Chappell et al who were always very neutral I thought (except Bill Lawry but because he had such an awesome foil in Greiggy, it was entertaining) but it seems these days the commentators say "we" or "us" a lot. I know all are ex-players, some very recently retired, but no need for it. Although some don't enjoy Strauss' commentary, for the record I actually did cause I thought he is very insightful. As a student of the game I very much like listening to that sort of analysis.
wilde_oscar wrote:Not sure that citing 'Warner' makes an effective case at all, Ralph. An ineffective blow if a pub scuffle would not have been news in days of yore, other than him being lampooned for the not landing an telling blow.
I do think Warner was given an easy ride back in the side but nonetheless I agree that compared to days gone by, it was pretty innocuous. Ian Chappell and Ian Botham's stouch comes to mind although Chappelli may have been retired by then. Actually a mate of mine who I play cricket with is a mate of Joe Root's (they played cricket together a few years back) and he's home in pommy land at the minute so I hope he catches up with Joe and gets the inside scoop.
wilde_oscar wrote:Let's leave aside the poor behaviour of 20,000+ drunken yobbos when one captain’s enterprise gave them an interesting endgame to enjoy - after Cook 's crew slowed the over rate consistently and batted-to-bore for over a day - not saying they can't do this but as a spectator this would be a pretty disappointing way to spend a day and GBP80+.
Cook is definitely not an entertainer, or at least he doesn't have that mindset. Of course he doesn't need to be and the poms can bat however they want but yes it was very dull cricket. Considering it was a road they should have done better. Although having said that the Aussies are complicit cause they couldn't break through enough. Pretty much summed up what I said at the start of this series: it would be a contest between two flawed sides. It was exciting on more than a few occasions but it certainly wasn't high quality cricket for the most part. Certainly wasn't the level of the 2005 series, that's for sure.
wilde_oscar wrote:How about the following equation for a real test of grace: England win + beer + time = :pee: on the pitch.
Personally I can't say I give a toss one way or the other, although to be fair I agree it's not a great look. But again disappointed at the reaction of some pommy media which was nothing to see here. Move along. George Dobell went as far as to say it was a conspiracy by the Aussie media to make it look worse than it was and that they shouldn't have reported it in the first place. Don't agree but fine his opinion. However, if an Aussie side had done this in the past, I'm sure his tune would be very different. Again, poor reporting these days. All very biased. You could argue (and I'm not one of those) that if that's the case, then the Warner incident should also have been kept a secret. Funny how the pommy press had a field day with it (and again to be honest I don't blame them).
wilde_oscar wrote:In brighter news the Australian men have their first win in anything in 20 days. Not hugely significant, especially considering each T20 side have only 2-3 test players but good to see just the same.

Did anyone watch it?
Not yet but might as well through it on in the background in a minute when I start doing some housework/chores. Not a fan of T20 to be honest but a bit of hit and giggle in the background while doing housework is what it is suited for.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by angryboy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:34 am

Australia kicking England`s arse
Poms whinging
Pommie media savaging their own
Balance has been restored
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by MacGyver » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:52 am

angryboy wrote:Poms whinging
Funny you should mention this. Was just chatting to a pommy mate of mine I play cricket with last night about the kerfuffle over sledging and I found it interesting that when the poms were winning, not a nairy thing was mentioned about sledging. Now that they are losing....And before the poms jump in and try to argue that they don't sledge, Anderson is a serial offender from way back (he's a fast bowler, what did you expect?) and most of the poms like to have a chirp so both sides are doing it. Only problem with it I have is it is shit. "I'm gonna punch you in the face." "Oh yeah? Get ready for a broken arm!" Fark I sledged better than that in U/12s. Actually the only thing that pissed me off is Anderson going to the umps. Fark, happy to have a chat with ball in hand but as soon as he is on the receiving end.....

Anyway, next test should be interesting. I'm tipping either a draw or pommy win. Then we should do it comfortably in Perth. Melbourne is anyone's you'd have thought, and then you'd think they have the edge in Sydney cause we still can't play spin. So still a lot of cricket left in the series for sure. I was gonna go to the Perth test but I left my run too late and days 1 to 3 are sold out and what seats are left for day 4 are shit so I'm not gonna bother. Prolly just go to a mate's and have a barbie and watch it on the box.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:45 pm

It really is dead around here, I would have thought there'd be an opinion or two about KP getting the bullet.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by angryboy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:56 pm

wilde_oscar wrote:It really is dead around here, I would have thought there'd be an opinion or two about KP getting the bullet.
Honestly I don`t think anyone gives a shit.Aussie hated him,the Poms hated him and he just
fizzed into oblivion during that last series.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by RalphWiggum » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:25 am

angryboy wrote:
wilde_oscar wrote:It really is dead around here, I would have thought there'd be an opinion or two about KP getting the bullet.
Honestly I don`t think anyone gives a shit.Aussie hated him,the Poms hated him and he just
fizzed into oblivion during that last series.
Great batsman on the right day, absolutely awful example of a person in most other ways. He should never have been allowed near the England team again after selling out Strauss to the Saffers. In fact, they should have stripped him of his MBE (not that I give too much of a fuck about MBEs) for being such a treacherous snake of a bloke.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by allblacks » Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:55 pm

As usual NZ cricket and sport in general is full of people pissing on each other. Jesse Ryder incident for example. He is a bloke who wants a night on the piss. So fucking what?! The real problem is the media in NZ. They are fucking banshees. Any chance to fuck someone over is taken. Nil discretion etc.

I know I know. It is everywhere. I just saw the above guy making really good progress and now his career is in question. FUCKERS!

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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by angryboy » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:32 pm

Any cricket fan , no matter your nationality , would have to be in awe of
Johnson right now. :omfg: :wnw:
In the Ashes he was untouchable and brutal and he is right now fucking
over the best team in the world consistently hitting 150 and brutalizing
the batsmen.
It has even been said that at team training no one wants to face him in the nets.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by BergKatse » Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:24 pm

angryboy wrote:Any cricket fan , no matter your nationality , would have to be in awe of
Johnson right now.
What's happened to him?! Not too long ago Johnson was very wayward, but now it seems he has suddenly become deadly accurate without compromising his speed. Very, very impressive indeed.
angryboy wrote:It has even been said that at team training no one wants to face him in the nets.
I say this without ever having faced scarily fast bowling in the nets, but whenever I hear talk like this, I always imagine that I'd take the opposite approach. That is, I'd try and get as much exposure to the heat and fury of that bowler as possible (having first put on so much armour and padding that I looked like the Michelin Man :thumbsup: ) so that the opposition quicks feel easy in comparison. I dunno, maybe it's not that simple...

Either way, Johnson is phenomenal right now.

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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:26 am

How about those Black Caps! Fantastic work with the willow by the middle order which bodes very well for the future.

India are pretty much shut out of the game and have lost the series, the only question is whether it will be 1-0 or 2-0.

I'm hoping for the later.

Great work by the skipper to be the first kiwi to make a triple ton!
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by allblacks » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:24 pm

McCullum is one hell of a batsman. I look forward to more of the same form.

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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by MacGyver » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:38 am

angryboy wrote:It has even been said that at team training no one wants to face him in the nets.
Yeah, he did break Faulkner's finger in the nets earlier in the season!
BergKats wrote:What's happened to him?! Not too long ago Johnson was very wayward, but now it seems he has suddenly become deadly accurate without compromising his speed. Very, very impressive indeed.
Two letters: DK.
BergKats wrote:I dunno, maybe it's not that simple...
Yeah see above about broken fingers. :wink:

Having faced some seriously quick bowling in the nets (both humans and bowling machines) I can tell you you feel very claustrophobic. The other problem is that often bowlers overstep the crease by some distance so not only does it make them faster, you have less time to react. The problem with padding is if you put too much on, it's hard to move so it makes you a sitting duck.

As for KP, I think he's been hard done by but the problem is no one seems to know what he has really done this time. It appears it is a case of the final straw (whatever it was) being the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by wilde_oscar » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:11 am

So, how long does Cook have left at the helm and even in the team? Is it only the lack of an heir apparent that keeps him in charge?

Can't be much fun to be him now.

On a semi-related note - well done NZ again! All the Black Caps need is a solid pair of openers and they'll be in a position to really challenge some of the 'big boys'.

Finally, how about test cricket? The last two series (Eng vs SL & NZ vs WI) were decided in the hour of the last day you don't get much better than that!
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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by BergKatse » Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:47 pm

When the hell did Pakistan rise to 3rd in the test rankings?!
And, is it just me, or are they pretty damn good these days?

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Re: Give me a cricket tidbit!

Unread post by Wage Slave » Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:02 am

I was wondering the same. They just gave the Aussies the most almighty thrashing in Abu Dhabi. 352 runs and they only used 13 wickets to do it. Something about pitches that offer little to faster bowlers and lots to spinners?

They have been very inconsistent in the past though - and the bookmaker thing.

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