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Chiba ALT Conracts Deemed to be Illegal

Whoever wrote The ALT Scam on the Fukuoka General Union blog is probably feeling vindicated right now. The Mainichi Daily News reports:

Public schools here [Kashiwa, Chiba] have been unable to start their native speaker-taught English classes this school year after the city's board of education was accused of violating labor laws with foreign language teachers.

According to the Kashiwa Municipal Board of Education, it has been instructed by the local labor office to change its labor relationship with foreign assistant language teachers (ALTs) in the city's elementary and junior high schools after it engaged in illegal employment practices.

The local education board entrusted part of its English curriculum for primary and secondary school students to a Tokyo-based staffing agency between 2007 and 2009, and a total of 23 foreign teachers belonging to the agency worked as ALTs at 61 local public elementary and junior high schools during this period. Their contracts expired at the end of last month.

The article goes on to say that instructors were working as temporary employees under the guise of subcontractors, and demanding that their contracts be extended. When they complained to the labour board, the board investigated and found that the instructors were under the direct supervision of the schools they worked at even though they were working under dispatch contracts. The problem with this kind of arrangement is that:

Under the current law, companies and other business operators must offer a direct contract to their temporary workers after they have completed the first three years of work. Moreover, the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare's labor guidelines require a minimum three-month interval before the two parties enter into another temporary contract.

The city's board of education had planned to terminate its English class teacher outsourcing contract and employ temporary English teachers directly starting this April. However, as the labor office judged that the education board had already forced its contracted foreign teachers to work as normal temporary staff, it became impossible for the city to renew the contracts right away, in accordance with the ministry guidelines prohibiting consecutive temporary contracts of over three years.

The BOE has announced that it will comply with the labour board's order, although English classes have been suspended until July. This is a good first step in breaking what I called "the terrible triangle" in ALT teaching jobs. The complaints to labour boards are having an effect.


Ha, ha! We are in the same country and I am also working late. Nice to see a fellow countryman on here.

Here is something that might throw a few people: I am a CELTA grad that was a little bit disappointed in my certificate. Not that it was a bad course or people should not push themselves more, but it really just ended feeling like I was paying for on-the-job training that school's use to do for free. I paid a lot for that darn piece of paper and it really only gave me very topical understanding of the whole industry I would experience later on.

I really think it depends on the school you take it, as quality and experience vary greatly. Had a friend do it in another province and he was basically used as a free monkey/ teacher inside the school and said he did not even have homework. Imagine that, a teaching course with no homework. ;-)

Is it an end-all? Absolutely not. Is it the best out there? Well, from the brochure and all the sales talk it is. I have a feeling the CELTA arguer (word?) on here is probably a CELTA program manager at a certain CELTA-providing school who is tasked with meeting CELTA enrollment numbers for the month. Who else would get so defensive and not just listen a little? Experience, whether some of it is TESL or CELTA, and a lot of character as someone mentioned, is really where it is at.......

Just my two and a half cents worth. Peace out.

It is simple

Teach in Japan long term, no qualification (Back Packer Teacher) = stay in Japan forever as EIKAIWA teacher OR become Mom and Pop School Operator OR scrapheap back home. It is simple. It is time tested. It is a fact, so therefore:

Back Packer Teacher EQUALS loser



Many additionally think Eikaiwa experience, qualified or not, is a waste of time, hence the famous Theory of Eikaiwa, which is needless to say, since it is so famous:

Eikaiwa PLUS Gaigin EQUALS loser


E + G = L

End of

Agree, my CELTA experience landed me a $15 an hour joe job. Same pay non-CELTA people got. School was accredited, too. Don't know if I have paid of my investment yet. Kind of expensive and get rejected from jobs all the time.

Mom and Pop Eikaiwa schools:

Come on guys: mom and pop eikaiwa schools are not that bad. Provided of course that they don't pretend to be more than they are, or offer to do for you more than they can. Surely that is THE number one problem with eikaiwa schools today. They pretend to something which they are not.

If mom and dad are honest about the nature of the service they are providing, there's no harm in that - is there? It's a bit like saying that the homestay mom shouldn't be helping out with the homework because she isn't a qualified teacher. A bit daft considering that the difference between how well people do or don't do often has more to do with the quality of the homestay than anything else.

And out come the capital letters! You must be really ANGRY!! GRRR!!

A) What is an "accredited" place? You throw/ Obviously you are a newbie because if you had any knowledge of the industry whatsoever there are NO "accredited" singular bodies giving out their approval in most countries!

No, but there are many which operate on a national or semi-national basis. Australia has government CRICOS registration (requiring, amongst many other things, staff meet a minimum level of qualification, yes, you guessed it, CELTA or TESOL), NEAS registration (which helps the government audit schools and plays a quality assurance role) and finally English Australia (the national peak body and professional association for language schools). New Zealand has a very similar system in place. England also has British Council accreditation. That's three off the top of my head. Look in any issue of Language Travel magazine and you'll see a breakdown of the national accrediting organisations and the recognition they enjoy by agents.

I am an "accredited" teacher with several TESL certificates

Is that like Celta-lite or something?

two degrees in education, one being a masters,

if you say so

and loads of experience.

so you should know all this already then? ;-)

My opinion matters

Oh no. Tell me you didn't just say that.

and I see all kinds of idiots coming through my door everyday begging for a job. Obviously, you would never make my standard for a teacher, but you might "pass" a CELTA certificate.

No, it would be career suicide for me to work for you.

Congrats on your one-month accomplishment. If that is all you can say for yourself in life, well, it puts things into perspective.

Yeah, well the DELTA I did a few years later was quite tough. And the MA I'm working on right now is a drain. But they don't mean anything because it's all about the loads of experience a teacher has, right?

c) The school I manage is accredited by LANGUAGES CANADA and all of our teachers must meet their requirements. Guess what? Most do not have CELTA, but STILL meet the CREDENTIALS of a governing body. Go figure.

Thanks, I will! Languages Canada is a toothless organisation that has done nothing to stymy the flow of shonky operators ripping off overseas students left right and centre. The lack of government leadership in Canada has led to an influx of badly-qualified, inexperienced teachers flooding into the industry and driving down the average wage and level of quality in the classroom to the point where most teachers would be better off working in McDonalds. Please don't hold up Langauegs Canada as an example of a serious 'accrediting body'; it's like calling Bryan Adams a leading figure in modern rock music.

You can keep arguing, but for every MY ACCREDITED school will never hire another CETLA grad. Seriously, you really have no tact or professionalism, so why would I hire you, CELTA or no CELTA. You constant refusal to see another point of view, one from a manager with more experience and education in TESL than you probably could dream of, just goes to show how sad a CELTA grad can be. Might also explain why you have so much time on your hands and seem a little bitter.

Hang on; Napoleon complex? check. Indeciperable rants? check. divorced from the reality of modern language teaching? check, check, check! Are you by any chance working in a certain ex-GEOS NA school?!

Out of a job?
No, but I'd start checking those job ads if I were you Uri!

I don't know whether you're referring to me or not (with the "little Celta guy/girl" snide remark), but if you are, you're a bloody idiot and pissing me off severely.

All I've been saying (yes, I'll repeat the same drivel again) is that getting qualified as a teacher - whether it's Trinity, Celta/Delta, PGCE, B.Ed., or whatever - puts you in a better position to start building a teaching career than if you don't have one. The reason I say that is because a lot of these "schools" in Japan don't offer any of that, and some of the people working there seem to think they're a "teacher", and are embarked on a wonderful "teaching" career, when in fact, it'll do jack shit for them in terms of a career.

When I say "accredited school", I mean an official, recognized body that checks the standards of the school, e.g. in the UK, the British Council for example. I know there's no worldwide standard for that - I never said there was one!

Also, I didn't say that CELTA was "the be all and end all". I've been referring to it as one of several recognized qualifications which, I'll say it again, you can START your career with. And again, I never said that having a CELTA "proves you are the best", you silly little school manager guy/girl.

I'm mainly referring to the situation in Japan here, not in North America. I don't know anything about the schools or system in North America, but after the snide remarks and attitude from North American managers on here, I think I'll leave them well alone.

Mack, if all you are talking about is Japan, then you need an MA to do uni work, and to have great Japanese to work in a school where the work is any more than just typical ALT stuff. That's it really. Whether you get a decent job or not can often depend more on who you know than what you know. Is your contribution to this forum designed to make friends and influence people: or do you have some other angle?

I thought I caught a glimpse of Uri last week up on Thurston Drive. Maybe the Saudis gave him a flea in the ear and now the eager beavers venting his spleen here! Did he ever do a CELTA? Perhaps he did a CHEN instead?

Don't worry, I know plenty about the way it works in Japan. My "angle" is as I've been saying in my posts, and had to explain, yet again, in no uncertain terms, to our manager friend above. Hopefully that's made things clear.

this has turned into a gang of tossers arguing about who has the biggest dick! lets face it if your a good teacher your a good teacher, but can you prove that in an academic world, ie have any of you worked in a high school, or university, do you have a phd ? probably not. CELTA is a qualification just like a BA, BSC or BED just because you have one doesnt mean shit. people who go to uni most being thick as pig shit doesnt mean they are qualified just because they recieved a degree.if anything it means they are good at repeating thats all! As for the fuckers who have come to japan to teach (notice japan not eastern europe, middle east etc ) and worked in an eikaiwa and started to believe they were teachers well in one sense they are, but to the rest of the world YOU ARE NOT! I have a CELTA and i know it doesnt mean shit if i dont try and use it, like posts before it is a stepping stone,just like a degree is a stepping stone.......but let me make this clear if i want to pursue a career in teaching, want to improve myself, get experience then later go on to get higher teaching qualifications then guess what, i actually wanted to be a teacher!!!! but like degrees which most idiots have. how many people do you know who studied i dunno english literature, economics, law, history whatever actually pursued a career in it! more than likely none. So just get over yourselves and stop wasting people time writing pointless shit on this forum, who really cares if you are qualified or not, writing about it on here proves nothing.
I am glad shawn doesnt screen people who write on here because i wouldnt have been able to prove that most people are just plain dumb as dogshit idiots.

Some people are getting real bothered about this site man. Amazing the amount of manager types who just you know 'drop by'. Getting difficult to know whose trying to CEL what TA who!

Know what yer sayin' bro. I mean this 'asian contagion' thing: hard to know which way to blow. If all the foriegners out there are dogshit, does that mean we get more customers or a whole lot fucken less?

Mack, you really make yourself look like a fool on here and do absolutely no justice to CELTA whatsoever. In fact, I am sure there are a few CELTA holders on here that wish you would just shut up and stopping a dead drum. You are ruining things for them. I know I will never look at a CELTA grad the same way after reading some of the ridiculous comments on here. Maybe your CELTA wasn't the ticket to eternal happiness as you expected. It is like someone putting that awesome Grade 10 history class experience on their resume as a "experience" even when they are in their 40s. Get over it, CELTA is just one small door in the grand scheme of things. What the heck can you expect from only a ONE-MONTH course?!?! University with a masters is 5 years+. I wonder which has more weight and why it is better looked at in most countries......

CELTA doesn't hold water in unis and other public schools, where a masters more important. Also, outside of Japan CELTA doesn't really add weight anymore than similar-length and content courses, whether TESOL, TEFL, or other, do. And if you haven't even noticed, people were talking about OUTSIDE of Japan, but you sill keep thinking they are only talking about Japan and reference them as "backpackers" if they do not have CELTA. Your world is really black-and-white. Sad.......

Yup, it was known as SELL-TA where I live. Hardcore salesman tactics in their free info seminars. Tell you how perfect it is, then make excuses why their SELL-TA grads could not get a job after or got the same job and pay as someone who had nothing and paid nothing...

Masters is a much better investment, even if most masters courses are for spoiled rich kids that just want to extend their childhood/ non-working/ responsibilities' lifestyle.

You and the other managerial idiots on here are the ones who've made asses of yourselves bud. I've never even said half the things you and the other ranting managerial halfwits ascribe to me (I think some of the stuff you're referring to came from other posters, not me). Read back over my comments carefully and educate yourself as to what I think, rather than misconstruing it in order to re-inforce your dislike of CELTA grads, and your "holier-than-thou" attitude towards CELTA in general.

If you really can't discern what other people's opinions are on here, and twist words to suit your own agenda, then I'd recommend any serious teacher to avoid schools like yours, and managers like yourself, like the plague.

Anyway, I'm sure this post has finally ruined it for all CELTA grads the world over, and none of them will ever be employed by any language school, accredited or not, ever again. Best get a Trinity TESOL instead, or keep working on that Distance DELTA.....

And if you haven't even noticed, people were talking about OUTSIDE of Japan, but you sill keep thinking they are only talking about Japan and reference them as "backpackers" if they do not have CELTA. Your world is really black-and-white.

And if you hadn't noticed, this board isn't called "Lets Outside of Japan", cloth-head. And I didn't reference non-CELTA people as "backpackers".

Jesus fricking Christ!!!!!

If you haven't noticed, the board isn't call SELL CELTA CERTIFICATES BY THE CASELOAD LIKE A DIRTY OLD USED CAR SALESMAN. Give it up. You screwed yourself.

You are also not very intelligent because nowhere did I say I was a manager, nor am I in management. You really are not the brightest light bulb of the bunch, are you? No wonder you spend all day writing on here selling us "SELL-ta" with no other meaningful job in your life to keep you occupied. Nothing worse than an ignorant, overbearing, and completely clueless salesperson from some school that harps on the life-changing benefits of SELL-ta. Yup. good luck selling your over-priced certificate courses now.

SELL-ta. That would be funny if it weren't so true.

I, also, question the motives of the SELL-ta guy. Maybe he/ she was thinking of using this board as an advertising device for his/ her school's courses and now the master plan is all caving in. If I were a CELTA sales manager, I would steer everyone interested in such a piece of paper away from this board. ;-)

Uri II: Redux.

19:34 You made laugh. Oh, Uri...Where art thou? Is Chen giving you the cold shoulder these days? No fancy smiles or rubs in the later afternoon? No special words on your Web sites for her? Why did you remove her name, o' Uri?


"David", now you're trolling. You confirmed my suspicions with those comments. Not the brightest of the bunch are you?

Keep going though.

Do we need another posts, Mackie? Or you just one of those kids that never shuts up and has to say anything to get the last word? Sad, really.

Please move on, because from the totality of the posts you got schooled by a few on here.

I agree. Mackie, count how many posts . And you are STILL trying to convince us of your deluded opinion! Unbelievable, really. You think that someone who has written so much, repeated him/herself so many times, yet still failed to sell his/ her point of view would step back and analyze what they were doing wrong. Heck, that is what a good teacher does all the time. Obviously CELTA missed on that one for ya.

We are obviously not convinced....

You have angered or frustrated a few on here due to your complete ignorance on some issues...

And some on here with any real power (hiring managers) have no intention of hiring anyone in the future with a CELTA paper because of your comments...

If that is what you intended to accomplish, then you absolutely succeeded.

Gripper: Nice to see someone fall into my trap. I used Languages Canada as a PRIME example of an accrediting body that was not up to snuff. Mackie harped on "accredited" schools / unaccredited schools and stupid non-CELTA backpacker...yadda, yadda. Well, you provided a few examples such as Australia. But what that exposed was exactly what I was trying to say: there is NO one body or accrediting standard, and most of the world has nothing even close to one standard (or even an agency trying to make one!). Especially not one that states CELTA is the king. God forbid.

Languages Canada is CRAP...But LC is also an "official" accrediting body, at least according to Mackie. So even when you have such a body, and maybe the like CELTA, they could be a crap body promoting a crap certificate course.

The rest of your, sorry, I just ignored. ;-)

Uri, Uri...

Thurston Drive? Isn't that close to his other muse, S... ;-) Shhh, don't tell Rita....She might fire off an impolite (read: fake) e-mail or two.

"David", you knew what was going on here right from the start, as did I. Who'd have thought that the words "mackorello" and "CELTA" in the same post, on an English-teaching forum, could cause so much distress to you?

Like I said though, keep going. I mean, we all need SOMETHING to project our deep insecurities and anxieties about our lives and careers onto don't we? I should know, I suckered people like you in for years.

(Just watch the responses to this one.....)

With regards to the point you made assuming that I said you were a manager, and that I was selling "SELL-ta", can you please point out where I said that? It was that slip you made that finally gave the game away. Good try though.

FYI, I'm actually starting a Master's very soon. Would you say that that will enhance my career further, or is it a waste of time, money and paper like the CELTA?

Any advice appreciated.

Just to finalize my comments, in case they got lost in the trolling above, CELTA's good for doing a bit of travelling, and/or starting a career off, but in itself is nothing, and doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a good teacher. It's down to you to put in the spade work working for accredited schools, good senior teachers and DOSs, work towards your DELTA and MA, and get into the better schools. Or else, as pointed out above, you'll end up stuck in "scammy operations" for the rest of your life, and quite possibly end up bitter and twisted (and trolling English-teaching forums about it).

Hope that clears things up, and doesn't bore you too much. More anti-CELTA diatribes and snide remarks from those without a job and a life, and speaking from experience, will follow.

I just read an article that the worldwide Head of CELTA and accredited schools has said, in the last few days since this whacked-out nut Mackorello started posting and ranting like a maniac, the number of people applying for CELTAs worldwide has plummeted dramatically. So much so that they're actually thinking of trying to block his IP address just so that he doesn't make even bigger fools of the CELTA people on here.

By the way, I second the comments above. Don't ever, ever hire another CELTA grad again. This Mackorello character shows just what a bunch of nuts they are. Do Trinity TESOL instead. I can vouch that that's a far better certificate and better career path to take than the waste of space that is CELTA, and the pathetic excuses for human beings that all CELTA grads are.

Oh, no...SELL-ta boy is back, crying and whining like a big baby. Or should I say little baby. ;-)

Do you ever stop crying? Your feelings too hurt after you got so excited about that one-month paper you earned? Proudest thing you ever did in your life, eh? Mommy must feel so proud of you and the great things you are doing in life. SELL-ta worked so well for you, you are now on Let's Japan posting 24/7.

Warning to all current and potential SELL-tese: your buddy just did you a disservice and now your piece of paper (future paper) is worth even less.

Mackie, you can continue crying now...just do not expect us to ever agree with your delusions of grandeur via SELL-ta.

Masters is much better. You will realize the "value" of CELTA when you complete one. The fact that you are doing one soon suggests CELTA wasn't the end-all for you. Others on here that have masters and actually hire know this. You should listen more and keep a stiff upper lip. Their criticism and point of view is important, especially if they might be signing your paucheque.

Good luck!

Ah, now he's finally coming out the closet. Plucking up a little courage now are we? Couldn't handle the shame of being strung along by Mackorello could you? Locked yourself up in mummy's wardrobe with your computer instead, screaming and whining about Mackorello. Who'd have thought I could have struck such a raw nerve, or that someone could get so bitter and twisted about an unknown person on the Internet.

What was your proudest achievement? Running a failing company perhaps? Posting oodles of nonsense on Internet message boards? Stalking other posters perhaps? Or being paranoid about sock puppets?

You just don't understand yet do you? You can't work out what's going on here. Keep thinking about it though, if you can. In the meantime, stay away from any sharp objects. In fact, don't go out for about a week, in case you go postal on someone and do something you regret. I only hope, for everyone's sakes, the police know where you are and are keeping an eye on you.

You're actually deeply envious of my proud accomplishments, and have delusions of grandeur yourself about being in the position of having a CELTA, several years of experience with accredited schools, and doing a Master's. Quite clearly, you must have a pretty low opinion of yourself and your accomplishments for you to think such a thing. I take it your English "teaching" career didn't go quite so well then? Don't worry about it, if CELTA's such a waste of time as you keep telling us, you must be in a far superior position now.

Hey look Guys,

We've done an absolutely 'sterling' job on the CELTA, haven't we? Maybe it's time for a little debate on that cruddy little test called the IELTS. Neh. I mean, like TOEFL is sooo much better: Oh yea. I mean which one, I can't remember, I've given up counting how many ruddy TOEFL tests there are.

TOEFL man? Surely the eikaiwa of testing systems: all things to all men.

You remind me of myself actually - the delusions of grandeur about taking over the world, holding sway over the hordes of insecure people enchanted by my power and might, and leading them to the promised land. Yet deep down, I was just as insecure and pathetic as the rest of them. The only difference was that I had the COURAGE, yes, the COURAGE to make a stand against this cruel, inhumane world. How many of the heathen flock could have ever done THAT?

THEY needed me in their hour of need!!


I WAS GOD, I tell you, GOD!!!

This thread is bringing all the nut-jobs out the closet by the looks of things. Definitely change the topic. IELTS, TOEFL, eikaiwa, kids classes, Business English, the weather. Just don't say C***A!

Well on that subject. I would like to say that when I took the TOEFL test I had an awful experience. I wanted to take the paper test. They told me I couldn't. I had to take the IBT test, because that was THE ONLY test. Then, after I took the IBT test and could hardly hear the listening/speaking section because of all the other people talking at the same time (absolutely crap headsets they give you. No, you may not use earplugs). Well, after that, 2 weeks after I get my result, the centre calls me up to tell me about this 'special' paper test they are having 'just one more time' for all those people who wanted to take it. What a rip off. Meanwhile, if you are actually signed up with a school or university, you can take any ruddy test they pay for. Individual test customer: totally screwed and dicked around for every cent they are worth.

Then I decided that maybe I didn't need to complete my education in America, after all: they're the guys who own that stinking test aren't they? I want to go to sunny Britain. So I just toddle on down to my friendly IELTS center, run by the British Council where I can get a real test that isn't full of multi choice bullshit. It lets me show, you know, what I can do. I get a personal interview with a very personable (and rather spunky) Brit, who is oh so nice to me about my plans: and voila. First time in baby.

And my uni (well OK, it's not exactly the dreaming spires, but it's not half bad). Come on over guys. We love you.

I agree. That TOEFL test and the way they have been carrying on for the last 15 years or so is a complete embarrassment. The only reason universities outside America give it the credit they do, is because they don't want to miss out on students who don't know about anything else.

TOEFL? We are actually talking about TOEFL?!?!?!?! Damn, some of us have very boring lives. Newbies! :-P

SELL-TA boy is so easy F with.......Funny stuff indeed.

7:58 I am proud of everything else I have accomplished in life except CELTA. My Masters is what really got me a great position at a great job. Had CELTA on the resume, but the interviewer just glided over it at the interview and gave one of those wry smiles. He has seen tons of CELTA grad resumes, but the masters is what did it and the the experience.

Holding on to the notion that CELTA is god more than 6 months after you completed a one-month course is just ridiculous and deluded.

Some of these manager types seem very insecure. Languages Canada is crap, you say. You know what? Next time one of my students asks for a reccomendation, which happens several times a year, I will hesitate to reccommend Canada: and if they are absolutely set on it, then I sure as hell won't be recommending a private school.

So our friend the trollmeister has slunk off in a tizzy, to lick his wounds in his mother's wardrobe. Glad that he took my advice of staying out of sight and out of mind for a while. I knew how easy it was - just put Mackorello and CELTA together in the same sentence, and off he goes, determined to project his own deep life anxieties onto the said poster. Soundly owned and defeated yet again. I can hear him desperately trying to think of his next piece of trolling, continually telling himself that he "owned" Mackorello. He'll be back, no worries on that score. In fact, he's probably trying to track me down now. Unfortunately for him, my baseball bat is by my bed, ready and waiting, and my Rottweiler's getting hungry.

Holding on to the notion that CELTA is god more than 6 months after you completed a one-month course is just ridiculous and deluded.

These bitter, twisted fools that could never make it past the 6-month CELTA mark make me laugh out loud.

CELTA IS THE GOD OF ENGLISH-TEACHING, PERIOD. When will you get that into your thick heads? CELTA teachers - clueless, the lot of you.

You're being very unfair there. I did a CELTA but certainly I never had a god-complex about being a CELTA teacher. On the contrary, I'd say, on average, CELTA teachers are no better than eikaiwa teachers. The only difference being that eikaiwa teachers have absolutely no chance of doing anything else, and slink off to pathetic, non-jobs running charities and the like, to make up for their feeble existence.

CELTA teachers, on the other hand, just have a remote chance of getting out of that. 99.9% of them don't make it, but there's that 1 in 1,000 that makes it to an accredited school, with proper pay, conditions and a proper career.

They are the true gods here.

And don't get too hung up on your MA just yet.. I've just had to sack a young teacher with an MA who was absolutely clueless. Knowing about something doesn't make you good at it after all. I'd strongly recommend an MA to anyone, but not without 4 or 5 years experience in a good school with regular PDM and training first at least.

Absolutely. A toilet cleaner that cleans toilets to the best of their ability, getting all the streaks of poo and wee off the bowl, will stand more chance of having a successful career than any clueless MA (Masterbator of Arts) idiot that thinks they know it all. When will you people realize that degrees are worth nothing except for wiping your pooper on? I actually use them as poo paper, in the local poop-hole I work at. Fancy that?

If I have bad teachers, I do not make money. Judging by the insecure and judgmental CELTA teachers on here, I will not be hiring anyone in the near future with such a certificate. Sorry, but this maybe is why they have so much time on their hands posting in here.

I've just been reading through this thread and I have to say, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Some of these CELTA know-alls need
a reality check: CELTA is not the be-all and end-all, as some have tried to make out. Some of them seem to have severe personality issues, stating conflicting and opposing opinions on topics, and as said above, developed a delusion of grandeur about themselves.

If you want to develop a teaching career without any skills or qualifications, then the place where you have most to offer is at an eikaiwa like NOVA for example. That's the place where you can truly develop a teaching career without qualifications and become good at it. On top of that, it's easy, regular work, the students are stimulating, and there's overtime if you want it.

Shame though that there's so many sad stories of people who couldn't cut it at a place like NOVA even, and ended up back in their home countries going nowhere fast. If you can't cut it at eikaiwa like NOVA, then there's really no hope for you.

Yup, agree, the Mackie troll was defeated. Got schooled by so many on here with his SELL-ta rants. Go join the infomercial gang, SELL-ta boy. What happened to those amazing job qualifications with that one-month piece of paper. Why you sitting at home all day and writing on these boards. So much for that SELL-ta. Maybe used car sales...They like to SELL. Or toilet paper company representative? Perhaps.

You are still on here trolling and slime-ing your SELL-ta infomercial/ pyrimad-scheme long after David and the others, who offered there honest and intelligent opinions, . Obviously, your SELL-ta providing school must not be doing so well these days or you are like the communist / Hitler youth brigades that would follow their dear leaders at any cost. Sad, really. Time to move on, little man....And I really mean the little part. ;-)

Yeah, what a fruitcake. I can't believe some of his ridiculous comments about teachers without qualifications being no good at teaching, not to mention his endless rants about CELTA. Why could someone have gotten so angry about having the glaringly obvious pointed out to them: CELTA is an absolute waste of time. Obviously his CELTA bubble has been burst, and wasn't the ticket to paradise he'd been led to believe, hence his subsequent insecurity and bitterness.

Well-said David and co. You owned him good and proper!

5:29 and 5:42, being that they are the same person.

No one said Master of Arts. Mackie, you really have to stop jumping to conclusions. Just like all the nutjobs who stereotyped anyone who did not promise the world and recite the red book/ SELL-ta propaganda as "backpackers", "managers", etc. You morons, there are a whole boat load of extremely qualified teachers, who also are ACCREDITED under their home country standards and who do NOT have SELL-ta or could care less about it.

A Master of Science in business or engineering definitely is much higher than a masters in arts. Everyone knows that, even artists. But any degree doesn't compare to what you will (or won't) do after.

I have to say, you do have a real dislike and fixation for this Mackorello character and his CELTA qualification. Some of the comments (quite rightly deleted) stretch into blood, violence and abuse. Not to mention the thought-stopping/humiliation techniques you used on him, reminiscent of Jim Jones and the People's Temple. I'd be very worried about the fact that messages on an Internet board are getting inside your head so much, and a person that you can't even prove exists, let alone has a CELTA qualification, and who you sit around all day for waiting to post on here, drives you to stalking and such violent, sexual thoughts.

It's alright, I owned him, although he doesn't realize it yet. I threw in the CELTA comment to drag him out of his lair, then strung him along feigning "hurt" at his "snide remarks" about my apparent CELTA qualification. He fell for it big time, then when I threw in the bait about "David B" being a "school manager", he got totally suckered in hook, line and sinker.

He'll now try to deny all this. All trolls do.

I am here, but mostly observing the rants. ;-)

Mackie, I feel very sorry for you...You seem to have more than just a CELTA inferiority complex or a case of a CELTA sales manager who just can't stop the sales message. You honestly seem to have some deep psychological issues. But I will leave it at that. It is a very serious and personal matter, and hopefully you get some along the way.

CELTA inferiority complex or a case of a CELTA sales manager who just can't stop the sales message.

Where did you get the idea that I've got a CELTA from? Did you believe me when I said I had one? Not the brightest are you? As I said above, I've been stringing you along with that for quite some time, but you're still living in denial. All your anxieties and insecurities have unloaded themselves onto Mackorello the CELTA grad. But who is Mackorello the CELTA grad?

You will now be thinking (and may well say) I'm a pathological liar, schizophrenic, a nut-job and a mind reader, that I need help, and you'll be scratching your head in sheer frustration as to why I do this, and you'll be completely stumped as to whether I've got a CELTA or not, but will keep on believing it, convinced of the truth of it all. Keep going.

And of course, I am all of those things I just mentioned, and anything else you care to think.

Holy Cow!

The next time I see a CELTA resume come across my desk, I'm going to secure the building and call the police.

Generally speaking, I would say that the language teaching industry has brought this kind of thing on itself. These people who run schools AND sell qualifications are the worst offenders, of course. However, there are also those who have hired underqualified people, or people who don't want to stay in this line of work for more than a short period of time as well.

This whole idea that you can have anybody with a degree, or even without teaching English, has been exported east from the west and has been turned into the circus and madhouse of asian language teaching operations that you now have.

You are now reaping the consequences of that in terms of overall decreased faith in the validity of your industry and crazy insecure people hanging on at the edges of it. You deserve all these Mackarello's and resumes coming across your desk. You deserve to have the integrity of your industry under attack, because you started something and then let it get out of control.

Shaun. Re. Message at 07:21.

You shouldn't be allowing crap like that like on here.

Mack take a step back if you can. You've said some good stuff but some people on here will just keep on attacking you no matter what you say to defend yourself.

All you're doing is feeding them!! Have a break from LJ for a few days! Review your CELTA notes :-)

Mack, take definite step back...maybe a few more just to be safe. _maybe 2% of what you said was okay, the rest just pissed people off and incited a riot. You obviously did not get it when people had their own opinion, and all you did was do a disservice to CELTA holders everywhere.


I just want to say my little bit.

I don’t see what all the fuss is about.

Mackorello has made one simple point and that is, if you want a career teaching English as second or foreign language, recognized qualifications are essential, and CELTA is a very good starting point.

This is particularly the case, if you want a career back home, beyond doing the monkey dance in Japan.

Why has this made people so angry and defensive?

Why has is made people gang up and pick on poor little Mackorello?

It is not nice, to torment people for no good reason in person, or on the net.

I think some of you clowns in here are paranoid about having no qualifications, and are jealous of Mackorello because he intends to do something more than the monkey dance in Japan, with his life, and that in person, you are probably total cowards, desperate to live in denial, because the plain truth hurts.

Anyway, I would like to finish by saying this. Anyone who argues, that qualifications are not essential for a meaningful career, and to do a proper job, in the ESL/EFL industry, are obviously clueless.

Of course, you can still have a nice time in places like Japan, doing the conversation thingy, without formal qualifications, but the reality is, if you want to progress to a medium top level job, even in Japan, you need sound and specific qualifications.

Why don’t you all take a chill pill, and stop picking on Mackorello, simply because he states a fact?

He does not even state that fact in spite.

It is clear, from his language, he offers helpful and well considered advice, and is not saying “look at me, I am better than you” and yet look at you all, behaving like a bunch of paranoid nutters, gathering around him, to throw stones.

He puts forward the hand of friendship, and offers careful and well considered advice, based on fact, and you respond by continually kicking him in the cods. You are nothing more than a big bunch of cyber bullies.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves, and I think you need to all offer one, great big whopping cyber apology.

Well, time for another two cents worth here. I will borrow from Rodney King - "Can't we all just get along?"

The Japanese want to learn English, so there is a demand of teachers, and you don’t need English teaching qualifications in Japan, because Japanese have unique brain wave differences, which means “In Japan Training (IJT)” is all that matters, because a unique methodology is necessary because of these different brain wave patterns.

Are you trying to say the Japanese are not different?

So, CELTA, DELTA, whatever, none of it makes any difference, because all of those qualifications are tailored by and large to cater to LATIN based cultures/people who want to learn English.

For example, Spanish people, who want to learn English, or Italians, and so forth.

The Japanese don’t want idiots teaching, so you still must have a basic degree, which they hope filters out stupid people, but since IJT is the most crucial thing, the BIG NAME employers here don’t pay much attention to outside Japan language teaching qualifications (OJLTQ).

Indeed, they rate IJT over and above OJLTQ.

So, given that in Japan, IJT is considered greater and more relevant the OJLTQ, is not this entire argument, a complete waste of time?

That is why you find many senior managers here, who have no teaching qualifications. They exceeded in IJT, worked hard, and rose to the top.

I bet half of you idiots talking about CELTA didn't even know what IJT and OJLTQ means. Common knowledge, to those in the know, here.

It's about time someone real smart told it like it is. The imposter (excuse me, I mean poster) above me says that we don't need them CELTA's or TESL thingies 'cause they got nothing to say 'bout parts here in J-Land. And he is right. In J-Land we got different brain wave lengths, you see, that mean we don't think much of them highfalutin four or five letter acronyms you smart fellers got out there to teach Latin folk. We don't have many Latin folk here in J-Land and we got our own four letter and five letter thingies here anyway. We got those OJLTQ types comin' in, but we smarter than them and quicker, too 'cause we got our own little IJT right here in J-Land. And if you don't like it, well, we got a good four letter one you're gonna understand right here for you.

Too bad for those foriegners who don't understand that IJT is IC. Meaning that once you are OC you are SH.
Everyone should know that, right?

Ego sum rumex 14.26 tamen Ego can't congruo ut CELTA est intended tantum pro Latin narro populus.

I don’t think qualifications have much impact at all in relation to the problems we have with instructors.

The main problem is that instructors fail to understand the business side of things.

With the way the industry is collapsing worldwide there isn't too much evidence that owners, directors and managers in the sector have that much understanding of the business side of things either.

I'm not talking about Japan here but overseas I don't agree with that particular choice of word.. going through a period of rationalistion would be better. Some schools are going strong even though some of the dodgier/less well-connected/badly-run/over-priced competitors are losing students. We're pretty much bringing in the same numbers as last year for example. I'd say the GFC has had a big impact on student numbers, as have various governmental decision regarding visas, residency requirements, etc. At the end of the day though people still need to learn English somewhere and are willing to pay to do it. They just tend to be a bit more discerning in leaner times.

It's alright Junken, I've egged him on for the past few days, and have heard much much worse come out of his diseased mind. He's just an Internet nut with a fixation with me, because I made some comments about his life which he couldn't handle.

In the meantime people, don't forget, getting a CELTA puts you in just a slightly better position to start building a career in English-teaching. It's no guarantee, but you might just be in with a chance.

The other option in Japan is to take the eikaiwa route, which will do little if anything for your career. Indeed, the people on this board who went down that route ended up in sad, useless dead-end jobs and careers back in their home countries, bitter and envious towards career teachers who made something of it, continually posting crazed messages about it, over and over and over again, for years after the event. And in some cases, completely obsessed with them, to the point of bloodlust and sexual violence.

Quite clearly, CELTA is the way to go.

I have 17 years experience in this business, and your words, Tilted Position, remind me of a very familiar tune. They really ring true. They just don’t seem to be able to get the business side of things into their heads at all. I used to get frustrated by it, even annoyed by it actually, but now, well, as long as they stick to what we teach them in our training, and delivery the “KP-SAG” (that means “key points sold and guaranteed”, for those of you who are at entry level and have not progressed through the ranks yet).

As the seniority of my position escalated, and experience began to kick in, I began to realise that disciplinary action was unnecessary, as long as the delivered the KP-SAG. This reduced the amount of time I had to spend issuing warning letters, and also reduced by own stress levels.

I was once a managerial rooky too. My advice to you, in order to preserve your own batteries, is to simply focus on making sure the trainers/supervisors (the “titled instructors”) stick to making sure the KP-SAG is delivered in each and every lesson.

You will find it much easier to handle your own stress levels, because eventually, you begin to realise, some people are cut out for management positions, and some people are cut out to simply instruct, at entry level. You begin to realise, it is not a crime, to stay at entry level, if that is what one decides to do. You need to manage your own frustration, with regards to the lack of ambition of some, since it is not relevant to the over-all delivery of the KP-SAG, when the bigger business picture is taken into consideration.

Remember, the customer buys product X. If product X is delivered, by delivery of the KP-SAG, then the company is protected at all times.

Good luck with your career path.

CELTA = glorified backpacker. The only real difference is the dumbasses who have SELL-ta paid thousands for the right to have the same job as the backpacker, at the same pay. Makes the backpacker who spent nothing look all the more intelligent.

Mackie, CELTA means nothing in Japan. That is why you try so hard to sell it; it cannot sell itself. You not having a job and loads of time to post on here proved that. ;-)

Newbie on this board.

To the dumbass calling himself, where in the hell did you get the idea that any school that hires non-CELTA teacher is unaccredited?!?!?!!?!?! There is not one country in this world that demands CELTA-only teachers to qualify a school. NOT ONE, especially not Japan. Wow, you really are clueless..

_meant to write calling himself _mackorello

The arguments about qualifications are meaningless. We only rate the following, in terms of our instructor resources:

(a) IJT (In Japan Training) - which we conduct ourselves


(b) KP-SAG (Key Points Sold and Guaranteed) - the instructor delivery of which we monitor and rate, and consider when it comes to contract renewal time, those that have demonstrated a constant ability to delivery the key points that were sold and guaranteed, standing a good chance of being considered for contract revalidation.

While instructors are not expected to understand unique aspects of the market here, such as brain wave differences, if an applicant can demonstrate a basic understanding of such things, it improves their chances of an entry level appointment and/or extension of contract.

The above poster does exhibit some brain wave differences, and if I were a Japanese student, I would not let his "qualifications are meaningless" teachers anywhere near me without my Hazmat suit on. I would rather take a dip in the Gulf of Mexico.

Eikaiwa = thick backpacker. The only real difference is the dumbasses who didn't have SELL-ta and didn't pay thousands for the right to have the same job as the CELTA teacher, at lower pay. Makes the CELTA teacher who spent the money look all the more intelligent.

Eikaiwa means nothing, is nothing, and leads to nothing. That is why you try so hard to diss CELTA; it cannot sell itself. You not having a job and loads of time to post on here, going nuts and getting obsessed with Mackorello the CELTA grad proved that. ;-)

Well I'm working for a school now that demands CELTA teachers to qualify, and I worked for one in Japan that was the same, that provided good pay, good conditions, training and a career path.

However, without a CELTA, one will end up in scammy operations like NOVA, going absolutely nowhere with crap pay, crap conditions, and ending up back in their home country bitter, twisted, envious of CELTA teachers to the point of psychotic obsession, with diseased thoughts, projecting all their own insecurities onto anonymous Internet posters. The ex-NOVA "teachers" with no job and all this time on their hands to post on here prove that ;)

That is why you try so hard to diss CELTA; it cannot sell itself.

Watch how the resident nutjob troll pounces on this on, if he dares....

It is clear Mackorello, you know nothing about the unique needs of Japanese students, or the unique teaching environment that has consequently evolved in Japan, otherwise, you would not be spamming away with all this CELTA nonsense.

You are in NO POSITION to be referring to anyone as being a nutjob, or a troll. NO POSITION AT ALL. You know why? Because that is EXACTLY what you are.

Is Cambridge paying you a commission?

The joke is on you and your employer, in that case, buddy, because you are turning people off CELTA like nothing I have ever come across, in my entire life.

You are WHACKO MACKO, just like a previous poster said.

You never did get promoted, did you?

You just can't see it, can you? You piss people off, with you irritating know it all manner, and yet, it is so clear, you would not have a clue, what you are talking about.

You need to get out of Japan, because the shit you are trying to sell, is not relevant here.

I agree. You guys should be insisting on a more rigorous criteria before letting anyone even take a basic qualificaiton. For example: a substantial languages background, such as native speaker of more than one language or stage 3 uni level in a foriegn language. Nothing less will do. On top of that you should be insisting on some kind of linguistics component in the degree taken up to at least stage 2 level. Further you should be insisting on some kind of background in coaching, teaching, doing something that involves the organisation of groups in an educational context. You should be doing this as a prerequisite even for your most basic entry level qualifications: let alone your higher ones: then you will weed out a lot of people who are not really interested in this line of work for the long term.

But that is not what is happening is it? You want to have your cake and eat it too. Well, in that case, go ahead and eat.

I agree with this statement.

Well I'm working for a school now that doesn't demand CELTA, just like 99% of the schools in the world do not. And almost every school in the world that hires teachers with CELTA and without, pay the same to both regardless of the paper or not. The schools that "demand" CELTA are almost always the ones who SELL SELL-ta themselves. Go figure. Best part, the largest chain school in Canada offers CELTA...But guess what? More than 50% of their teachers DO NOT HAVE CELTA.


Well the universities in North America and most other countries hire teachers without CELTA. Must be "charlatans"...Or the 99% of the schools worlwide (even JAPAN) that hire non-CELTA grads....Yup, must be "charlatans"...Or the all the non-CELTA teacher who got their teaching credentials and EXPERIENCE long before the CELTA brand name was developed. Yup, they too must be "charlatans." Or even the CELTA PROVING SCHOOLS who hire teachers WITHOUT CELTA. So much for confidence in your own program or "accreditation."

CELTA is a piece of paper, not a license, diploma,. For some people it might be the greatest accomplishment in their life (Mackie?). Kind of like those people who celebrate working at the shopping mall. For others, it is too simplistic and temporary, and a VERY basic piece of paper. SELL-ta people seem only to big on selling the paper. Sad part is, judging by mine and others reaction on this board, they have even failed at that. But do not expect them to understand that.

Change of subject, but something I thought a few on here would like to know...From the inside of the GEOS lair...

GEOS Canada (and U.S.) is going after...Sad part is the Pathways program was basically created by ex-GEOS Ottawa manager, Martha Munroe. Yes, the same Martha that was unceremoniously axed by Mr. Uri Carnat. No, no...It was Mr. Douchebag Carnat. Well, now Mr. Douchebag is going all out to be the "pathway" to university through GEOS. Yup, the same academically inept school company is selling itself as a way to get to university. Good luck with that one. And nice copy job, Uri boy.

Speaking of academics, our new Academic Coordinator in Montreal is Tiffany Candlish of Korea fame. Yup, ol' Uri is still trying to patch up the relations he so screwed up with the Koreans. Anyone notice GEOS Canada employees. This is the same guy who ditched the Korean students (pissed them off) in favor of Mexican and Columbian students. Yup, that strategy worked out oh-so-well. Guess he is slithering back to the Koreans by hiring Koreans everywhere and for every position. Anyone else notice Kim seems to be the only surname on the GEOS NA employee roster these days.

GEOS Canada is trying to say they are the stepping stone before university. Hence the "Pathways" program. Yes, it was created mostly by Martha (poor Martha). But it is a crock of shit because GEOS has absolutely no reputation even close to being worthy of sending people to university. Then, again, if you look at the actual list of universities and colleges, you will see most you would not even know. These are schools you can get into without spending thousands beforehand at GEOS. Total marketing scam.

Candlish is not Korean, but I do know she taught in Korea. And I do know she is just one the "Korean gang" that Uri is trying to establish. Kim Gang is another term we use from the inside. ;-) Every second worker at GEOS is now Korean. Plus Pathways/ TOEFL = money! Uri style.

So the troll's sick, twisted online stalking obsession and psychological meltdown has been continuing all day and night unabated on here. He's now having BIG DOUBTS as to whether Mackorello is actually a CELTA teacher or not, or whether he's been selling SELL-ta on here or not, or whether he's got a job or not. He really can't work it out, and is thinking about those knives in the kitchen.

He's also getting terribly serious about all of this, dragging all sorts of non-arguments up from the bottom of the barrel in a last-ditch attempt to salvage his credibility, and prove anything other than a CELTA is a simplistic, temporary, basic piece of paper that puts you in a better position to build an English-teaching career than NOVA. In fact, he's getting so desperate and messed up in the head, he's now veering towards thinking that NOVA, censured for lying to and deceiving its customers, wasn't a charlatan operation after all, despite lambasting them for years in message-upon-message of semi-psychotic ramblings.

He's losing the argument, and losing the plot, big time. Please continue with another string of predictable posts containing the same, tired old projections of your own insecurities, and carry on swinging punches whilst I effortlessly slam you into the ground each time. It's great fun. You'll give up sooner or later. Keep going.

(Cue "Mackorello nutjob, Whacko Macko, soundly defeated, owned, on here all day, lost the argument, move on little man, meltdown, psychologically disturbed" etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.)

Good 'ol GEOS NA, getting into bed with the World Education Group. I sure hope that WEG boss Richard Ferrin knows what he's gettin' into. Mind you, folks, looking at the WEG tertiary institution partnership list, I sure hope that would be GEOS partnership students know what they are gettin' into. But Rita and Uri and their sheer GEOS professionalism will likely keep those new bodies on the right track.
What a superb new world of education we are creating. Makes ya proud to have a degree, don't it?

Is it a bird?


It is a plane?


It's CELTA Mack !!!!

The most interesting posting on this thread is about GEOS NA. The whole Pathways program was dusted off as another attempt to secure long-term tuition pre-payments. Kind of like the Summer Programs for kiddies, but that pre-payment money is drying up fast. Mostly GEOS NA is grabbing at straws to make money/ stay alive. Ignore the "look what we are doing for 2011" postings on their sites, as it is all a big ruse for people like us on here. There was an order go down a while ago across GEOS NA to "make it look solvent and thriving"..........

Rumour is that halo effect of summer+Summer Schools for young students+tapping in to Middle East (particularly Saudi Arabia) pool (where some scholarship activity exists) is keeping GEOS NA afloat at present. The first two enrolment sustaining factors will fade away over the next couple of months. Where that will leave GEOS NA is predictable. Standing costs remain, revenue down. If Japan trustee really wants to sell the NA outfit, then time is rapidly running out.
The World Education Group linked Pathways programme hinges on letters of conditional acceptance from certain rinkydink universities. CA letters might be attractive to students wishing to come to USA/Canada. CALs could help srudents with visas and might encourage their parents or their sponsoring government agencies to open the check book. Agents whose students use the GEOS/WEG pathways will also see some commission from both bodies. Whether the Pathways programme is going to have any real impact on the GEOS NA bottom line is an open question. However, to GEOS NA the Pathways programme is essentially a positive no-cost addition to their profile.
You have to feel sorry for the GEOS NA team. Probably living on borrowed time but doing their best to persist.
Oh, sorry, I think that the CELTA isn't a bad entry level type certification to have in this industry. The DELTA is interesting but maybe a bit too focussed, perhaps better to spend the time/money on a more useable course work Masters...will take a bit longer but you can bend the Masters to more employment "things."

Like I always said, September is crunch time for GEOS NA, especially Canada. That is when the summer spike in enrollment ends and summer camp tuition is gone. The Saudi scholarships are a gamble and not really going anywhere in the long term. Also. Gotta love how GEOS Vancouver is posting on Facebook everyday of its summer camps and other mundane occurrences at the school. Marketing the hell out of itself, but the irony is one of the main summer camp groups just left. Kind of foreshadows where things are going, doesn't it.

Selling GEOS NA has to occur before September. Rumour has it that all the Pathways and other other ghost programs added were in attempt to provide the best face for a potential sale. And that most of what is being done is for a) immediate survival and b) sales prep. But at the end of the day, most potential buyers are going to know the hole GEOS NA is in and that it is such a damaged brand. They will also know that they do not want to pick up a company that has no real direction or business plan (grabbing at straws is a perfect analogy) and has at best a management team of incompetent idiots who talk more than do. You would literally have to change everything, including all of the operating managers, to even begin to form a proper, profit-making company. Good luck on that one.


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